Health Insurance required

[Wicksey]

then when you reach 60, can get that cover for the rest of your life - which could easily be twenty or thirty years.

As I understand it, I cannot get the form E121 which entitles me to receive free NHS treatment in Spain until I am of pension age, which in my case is 65 ..... if I live that long ....... some of my friends haven't.

I really do not think the taxpayers of Britain should have to cater for every whim of citizens who expect the best of all worlds, getting what suits them at the time.

I am not getting the 'best of all worlds', that's entirely my point. I'm not getting any NHS cover anywhere .... whilst citizens from other EU countries, who may never have even contributed in their own country, let alone the UK, can get benefits when they move there. I just think I should get what I am entitiled to after paying into the system, and that the NHS cover should be unified throughout the EU.

[peteroldracer]

As the horrendous costs of the (fiscally) inefficient NHS are such a massive burden on the State, do you really think other nations would want to sign up to that level of cover? Even the "richest nation on Earth" - the USA, has at best a very cut-down version, which only caters for the poorest members of the nation.
One of the major problems with the UK is that authority in general is scared stiff of being honest - look at the current farce with money being produced out of thin air to solve the short-term result of years of poor management, with no mention of how it is to be repaid.
Too many people come here without finding out the whole picture, then moan about what they think it should be.
You have had, and will get what you are entitled to, Wicksey, because you have chosen to move out of the UK - those are the rules. It is the same bleet as those dodgers who squeal about having to pay to legally use their British car here - that is the law, and I have no sympathy with anyone suffering because they do not obey. I don't like the current exchange rate, but there is absolutely no point in going on about it except maybe to continue to vote in UK elections (as one can) and campaign in the UK for better fiscal management by government.
Good luck with efforts to get the rest of Europe to take on the millstone of an NHS!

[Bongtrees]

This is why Peter Old Racer is incorrect plus the fact that the man was accepted and is being treated is also proof. The UK will not of course pay for the transportation.


If you live in a European Economic Area country, or Switzerland, then you may be able to be treated here if the treatment you need is not available where you live. You would need a special form (E112 or E123) which you get from your own doctor. The countries included in this arrangement are all EU countries including Spain

[Peter]

Of course it is wrong that someone who has paid into a scheme all their working lives should be denied treatment because they decided to move elsewhere for a while. Trust me the same argument will not be used if you pop your clogs as a resident of Spain, the UK will still want a slice of death duties ( soory inheritance tax) as you will be deemed to be domiciled in the UK, no double standards there then !!
I really cannot be done with comments from petroold racer like, "it is the law" or " it's the rules" , has he really considered wether they are just rules and laws because in my short 60 years I can think of dozens of occassions when the government has got it wrong and done u turns, you be the sheep petro old boy and let us do the campaigning for change.

[masterob]

As I understand it the UK tightened the rules relating to Medical Treatment to try and prevent "medical tourism" i.e. people travelling to the UK just to get free treatment under the NHS. That cannot be a bad thing.

I don´t really follow an argument which says "I paid into a scheme all my working life so I should still be entitled to free treatment under the NHS irrespective of where I live. The fact is that, having moved to Spain you are no longer contributing to the UK National Insurance Scheme so why should you benefit? After all if you stopped paying your house insurance you could hardly expect to make a claim at a later date by using the argument that you paid for years before you cancelled the policy. Same principle surely. The NI Scheme is not a savings scheme to be used as and when, it´s an Insurance Scheme valid only for as long as you pay into it.

As to comments about foreigners being entitled to NHS treatment as soon as they arrive in the UK, I was under the impression that they too have to demonstrate contributions to the NI Scheme or to a comparable scheme if from another EU member state. Can´t help feeling that such tales are part of the bashing immigrants type.

As Peter says, we all know the rules before we moved here, if not, we should have! Somehow I can´t see much support from the UK tax and NI payers not to mention the UK Government (of any colour) to a campaign of the type envisaged. After all this is really only an issue for those Brits living in Spain who are under State Pension age and not contributing to the Spanish Health system.

Good luck with any campaign but I won´t hold my breath.

[Peter]

Masterob you write in your first paragraph " as I understand it" and then in your third para " I was under the impression" well I can assure you that your understanding and impression are well misplaced, anybody can get treatment on the NHS and I mean anybody, the rules are so slack, if you are outside the EEC you merely have to say you are living with friends at whatever address, often claiments use the same name, I have a friend who works as a receptionist at a large North London hospital and they had a case where thirteen different men were all using the same name and address, what checks are there when you register with a doctor or turn up at A & E ! as to the EEC and the idea that the newer member states had a system similar to our NIC scheme which the working classes paid into, well that is laughable, as I said you pay in for thirty odd years and then you are denied treatment, you still get your pension etc, its all double standards to save the government money, I notice there was no responce to my point regarding inheritance tax were all of a sudden the government want to know you again (excuse pun) when you are a gonner, they will still take your council tax even though you live in Spain and use no services, need I go on ?

[katy]

Seems to me that the British should be proud of a service which doesn't turn away a Guy with a broken neck and paralised (whatever nationality). Lots who move here post how cráp the UK is but they still want to use it as a safety net.

[Jool]

I made same point as you Wicksey a couple of weeks ago and pointed out that we are STILL paying into the UK system as my OH private pension is still taxed in UK, yet we are NOT entitled to health care in the UK, and I know many people who just arrive in UK for health treatment and disappear again without every having contributed anything....I spoke with staff at several London hospitals about it when doing my research re moving to Spain.......

It may be the status quo but that does not make it right any more than it makes sense that you can get winter heating allowance if you were receiving it before you left UK but cannot claim it if you are living in Spain before you are of an age to claim it - how can that be fair and just? Its a myth you don´t need to heat your house in Spain in the winter.......it may be the current system PetrolD but that does not make it right.............

[BENIDORM]

I wholeheartedly agree with you Katy..

What I find hard to understand is why it is now more difficult to obtain medical aid in different countries in Europe, I thought it was supposed to be a United Europe, freedom to live and work in any member states and all that..It was much more relaxed a few years ago,and as each month passes there seems to be more restrictions in just about everything..
What is the World coming too ?
Regards,
Gordon

[peteroldracer]

Anoher dose of cojones from the man whose only good sense is to share my first name. If you have moved to Spain, qualified and declared that you are resident, and have no property in the UK, there is no way you will pay inheritance tax, or council tax, or anything other than tax on a pension from a government employment.
It is only the people who want their bread buttered on both sides, and all the crusts, then lie to try to protect it that will have problems.
As for the heating allowance - wouldn't those objecting to the "some get it by lying, some by qualifying before they leave" system do better to lobby for this to be replaced by the much fairer way of an increase in the pension, being fair to all and costing much less in administration?
There again, if the government adopted a system of one tax rate (say 15%), with no allowances, they would save the salaries of hundreds of tax men and cut out massive amounts of avoidance and evasion.

[Bongtrees]

Anoher dose of cojones from the man whose only good sense is to share my first name. If you have moved to Spain, qualified and declared that you are resident, and have no property in the UK, there is no way you will pay inheritance tax, or council tax, or anything other than tax on a pension from a government employment.

I could be wrong and huge apologies to Sid if I am but I think he has written somewhere that inheritance tax is payable in both countries even if there is no property in UK.

[masterob]

Masterob you write in your first paragraph " as I understand it" and then in your third para " I was under the impression" well I can assure you that your understanding and impression are well misplaced, anybody can get treatment on the NHS and I mean anybody, the rules are so slack, if you are outside the EEC you merely have to say you are living with friends at whatever address, often claiments use the same name, I have a friend who works as a receptionist at a large North London hospital and they had a case where thirteen different men were all using the same name and address, what checks are there when you register with a doctor or turn up at A & E ! as to the EEC and the idea that the newer member states had a system similar to our NIC scheme which the working classes paid into, well that is laughable, as I said you pay in for thirty odd years and then you are denied treatment, you still get your pension etc, its all double standards to save the government money, I notice there was no responce to my point regarding inheritance tax were all of a sudden the government want to know you again (excuse pun) when you are a gonner, they will still take your council tax even though you live in Spain and use no services, need I go on ?

Peter, so what is your real gripe, that you can´t be a medical tourist or that the rules need tightening to stop others getting treatment? If what you say about the ignored rules is true (sorry but I always take information of the "a friend told me" kind with some sceptism) then I agree the rules need tightening. If you want to be a medical tourist then I repeat, why? I have already said that I can´t see how you expect to get current NHS treatment when not now paying NI Contributions. What you paid in the past is irrelevant for the reasons I give above.

I don´t see why you consider all of this as double standards. How can you pay UK Council Tax if you live in Spain unless you still own a house in the UK in which case why do you think you shouldn´t have to pay Council Tax on it? Isn´t it a double standard if you really believe you shouldn´t?

Anyway, before you embark on your campaign it may help to read the rules, if you haven´t already see:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/fam ... abroad.htm

[masterob]

I made same point as you Wicksey a couple of weeks ago and pointed out that we are STILL paying into the UK system as my OH private pension is still taxed in UK, yet we are NOT entitled to health care in the UK, and I know many people who just arrive in UK for health treatment and disappear again without every having contributed anything....I spoke with staff at several London hospitals about it when doing my research re moving to Spain.......

It may be the status quo but that does not make it right any more than it makes sense that you can get winter heating allowance if you were receiving it before you left UK but cannot claim it if you are living in Spain before you are of an age to claim it - how can that be fair and just? Its a myth you don´t need to heat your house in Spain in the winter.......it may be the current system PetrolD but that does not make it right.............

Jool, I also pay UK tax on my Civil Service Pension, I knew the rules before I moved here and accepted them. I wouldn´t have moved if it were a major issue. You say the rules are wrong, why, because some people flout them? Hardly a strong argument is it. Rather like saying there should be no speed limit on roads because some people flout them.

The argument about Winter Fuel Allowance is similar. These rules are clear and are taken into account by most people before moving. Maybe you would feel better if those already getting the Allowance lost it on moving Overseas? The Government would love you, receipients most definitely wouldn´t.

Anyway, I fear we are hijacking the original thread!

[Jool]

No I am picking up on the point that if you contribute you should be entitled to healthy care somewhere....I get really fed up with people on here who take the superior "well these are the rules" approach........implying we are all scroungers or rule benders.......under the EU there is meant to be equal or equitable treatment and that is not the case....

I am not advocating flouting the rules, but changing the rules to make them more equitable as they are unjust and unprincipled right now in my opinion........in fact it seems to me that the rules being so unjust actually make people lie.....and abuse the system. It is great that anyone can use the health service in the UK, very compassionate, but unaffordable in the long term, yet people who were living in the UK and are known to have moved abroad ARE being asked for proof of renewed residence in the UK for 6 months before they can get health care.......

As for Winter fuel allowance, either its part of your entitlement as a pensioner or its not....after all its cold everywhere in he northern hemisphere in the winter

[El Cid]

I could be wrong and huge apologies to Sid if I am but I think he has written somewhere that inheritance tax is payable in both countries even if there is no property in UK.

That is correct. IHT liability is based on domicile not residence.

Unless you can persuade HMRC that you are now domiciled in Spain (which can be difficult) then UK IHT is due on all your world wide assets. Although the double taxation treaty does not cover IHT there are special provisions to minimise the payment of the same tax twice.

Sid

[Peter]

Sort yourself out petrooldracer, If you read my message again you will see I said "council tax", I made no mention of "heating allowance" and as to inheritance tax you are wrong, if your estate is over the set figure then even if you are a resident of Spain you will be deemed domiciled in the UK and you WILL pay inheritance tax.

[Wicksey]

No I am picking up on the point that if you contribute you should be entitled to healthy care somewhere....I get really fed up with people on here who take the superior "well these are the rules" approach........implying we are all scroungers or rule benders.......under the EU there is meant to be equal or equitable treatment and that is not the case....

I am not advocating flouting the rules, but changing the rules to make them more equitable as they are unjust and unprincipled right now in my opinion........in fact it seems to me that the rules being so unjust actually make people lie.....and abuse the system. It is great that anyone can use the health service in the UK, very compassionate, but unaffordable in the long term, yet people who were living in the UK and are known to have moved abroad ARE being asked for proof of renewed residence in the UK for 6 months before they can get health care.......

That is exactly my point Jools. Under the EU I think that EU members should get equal treatment, although I cannot see that happening!

I don´t really follow an argument which says "I paid into a scheme all my working life so I should still be entitled to free treatment under the NHS irrespective of where I live. The fact is that, having moved to Spain you are no longer contributing to the UK National Insurance Scheme so why should you benefit? .....it´s an Insurance Scheme valid only for as long as you pay into it.

I didn't mean the UK NHS, I meant the NHS system of the EU country that I was living in at the time. There are many people in the UK who do not contribute to the NIC scheme but benefit from the NHS (and claim many other benefits available in the UK), and your entitlement doesn't stop when you stop working ..... that's if you ever did work! There are plenty of long-term unemployed who have contributed little but still get the service. No-one iving in the UK is excluded from receiving free medical care in the UK just because they have ceased to pay/have never paid NIC.

[peteroldracer]

From tax-guide.co: Aside from spouse-to-spouse transfers (which are exempt from IHT and are covered in an article elsewhere in this section), one of the most important set of exclusions from the IHT schedule is known as ‘excluded property’, and affects those domiciled outside the UK. In the first instance, it might be useful to investigate the definition of ‘domiciled’. This is an important legal term that can affect tax matters in several ways. In basic terms, domicile refers to the country in which you have your permanent residence. It is important to note that this is distinct from your nationality.
Personally, I prefer to accept their advice than a new forum poster.
I live permanently in Spain, have a Spanish will, am registered here as resident, pay taxes here (or at least am registered to, should I ever have enough income!), and own nothing in the UK. They therefore have no right to get a penny, just because I still have a Briish passport!

[Bongtrees]

I have always understood that the word domicile and country where you are resident are not the same thing.

One assumes Peter that you receive a British pension and that your health cover is being paid for by Britain via the E121.

Maybe thats how its decided?

[peteroldracer]

At this point I actually am below pension age, so get my health cover by being dependent on my partner, she being over 60 and receiving UK pension.