after the Greeks ...
Re: after the Greeks ...
So, the UK has to donate almost a billion pounds to prop up this ailing currency. Cameron said there was an agreement in 2011 that this would not happen. What does the EU say "at that time Cameron was correct but the clause can be activated. The regulation can be reactivated." There's democracy for you the UK has already been asked to cough up a few extra billion because it earns more, will it get it back when it isn't doing so good...fat chance.
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Re: after the Greeks ...
Rajoy has, apparently, been quoted as saying the only answer to the Greek question is Federalisation pronto. Spaniards here think Greece is a basket case and always has been, unlike Spain where people at least pay SOME taxes.
What is going on? No one has any idea but everyone knows one thing, they do not want to pay any more money to 'solve' the crisis. Whether the UK does pay will be up to the balls of the PM.
What is going on? No one has any idea but everyone knows one thing, they do not want to pay any more money to 'solve' the crisis. Whether the UK does pay will be up to the balls of the PM.
Re: after the Greeks ...
Put the IMF's condemnation of no debt write-off in conjunction with the now-possibility of the Greek parliament rejecting the 'deal' today, and things could become very messy for the EU. Hey ho.
Mañana
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Re: after the Greeks ...
It defies belief that the Greeks have voted 'Yes' to this impossible situation. The only sensible way forward would be to leave the Euro, the cause of all their problems. Okay, they are not too good at economics, that's clear, but with their own currency they could at least do what the UK does - print more money.
So ... does all that has come out about the internal workings of the EU make it more, or less, likely that the UK will vote to leave? At the start of all this I was pro-Greece giving the Eurozone a big kick. I was also, still, pro-EU. Not now. :crazy
AEP has written a good piece in today's DT about how this whole Greek affair has destroyed the credability of the Left across Europe. He writes a thoughtful, reasoned arguement. In which case, bye-bye Podemos. However, do we want the rise of the extreme Right? The future looks messy indeed, ChrisM.
So ... does all that has come out about the internal workings of the EU make it more, or less, likely that the UK will vote to leave? At the start of all this I was pro-Greece giving the Eurozone a big kick. I was also, still, pro-EU. Not now. :crazy
AEP has written a good piece in today's DT about how this whole Greek affair has destroyed the credability of the Left across Europe. He writes a thoughtful, reasoned arguement. In which case, bye-bye Podemos. However, do we want the rise of the extreme Right? The future looks messy indeed, ChrisM.
Re: after the Greeks ...
Not usually my favourite newspaper but the Guardian live is excellent on the running fiasco.
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Re: after the Greeks ...
The only 'paper' that has been rubbish at covering this story has been the DM who has concentrated on other news such as 'Can this woman really be 50?' and important items like ... I forget.
As for Greece ... I don't think for one minute this is over. Not by a long way.
As for Greece ... I don't think for one minute this is over. Not by a long way.
Re: after the Greeks ...
I agree and it's also the view of a number of investment banks who now say the longest Greece can stay in the Euro is 2019. That gives the banks time to get into damage limitation.Lavanda wrote: As for Greece ... I don't think for one minute this is over. Not by a long way.
No-one comes out of this with credit: (a) Greece: widespread corruption, tax evasion and restrictive practices - all funded by the Euro - with bloated, early pensions and benefits, (b) the banks: loaning to a customer with a lousy credit risk rating, (c) the EU: no monitoring/policing of the loans and especially the bailouts.
When Cameron and Osborne bleat about the 1 billion Euros of UK/taxpayer money being used as part of the bailout: they put the money there, clearly without cast-iron safeguards about its use. Sloppy business management.
Ineptitude all round, methinks.
Mañana
Re: after the Greeks ...
You could add two more
1 Greece should never have been brought into the Euro. Someone ought to be brought to account for the wasted manpower trying to fix the problem, angst and ruined lives. A whole generation have little to look forward to other than upping sticks and working abroad.
2 . The lenders and those asking for the money. They should be brought to account.
Won,t happen of course. The people involved will just get promoted and get fatter pensions.
Had to smile at the requirement to produce a list of state assets so they can be sold off ( at leisure) over the next three years to offset the bailout. Euro group are bailiffs now?
1 Greece should never have been brought into the Euro. Someone ought to be brought to account for the wasted manpower trying to fix the problem, angst and ruined lives. A whole generation have little to look forward to other than upping sticks and working abroad.
2 . The lenders and those asking for the money. They should be brought to account.
Won,t happen of course. The people involved will just get promoted and get fatter pensions.
Had to smile at the requirement to produce a list of state assets so they can be sold off ( at leisure) over the next three years to offset the bailout. Euro group are bailiffs now?
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Re: after the Greeks ...
That bit about selling off Greek assests is robbery! Still, the UK have already got the Elgin Marbles. Perhaps the Chinese will buy the Parthanon, dismantle it and reassemble it in Beijing? How will Greece EVER get out from this mess? How will ANYONE survive the Euro?
Re: after the Greeks ...
Here's the core issue: the EU - like the Soviet Union - is a social and political experiment on a continental, unprecedented scale. Both were formed out of theory, untested and had no economic basis in precedent.olive wrote:
1 Greece should never have been brought into the Euro. Someone ought to be brought to account for the wasted manpower trying to fix the problem, angst and ruined lives. A whole generation have little to look forward to other than upping sticks and working abroad.
In the process, entire generations have been deprived of true democracy, experimented upon with funny money one minute and austerity the next.
The only political and social model with millennia of being tried, tested and sensibly tweaked over the centuries is the nation state. It still works for the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia et al. It used to work for European nations. With intertwined economies - global capitalism being the other modern phenomenon - a return to European wars is far less likely than the period running up to WWII.
Basically, everything else is symptomatic of this absurdly ridiculous cause. We peoples of Europe need to start addressing the cause and not the symptoms.
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- peteroldracer
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Re: after the Greeks ...
I disagree with you Chris about the USA being a nation, as each state has its own set of taxes, trading rules etc., and the immensely corrupt political system with senators being in the pocket of industries and lobbyists makes sure that even a President with cojones cannot rule. A bit like Spain really, which is certainly not a nation, merely a large number of municipalities loosely joined by being on the same land mass (Balearics and Canaries excepted).
I used to cough to disguise a [email protected] I f@rt to disguise a cough.
Re: after the Greeks ...
Fair enough, but I disagree. I was brought up there. They have a unique (deliberately designed) system of federal government with the safeguard of state laws/rights. On an issue of blindingly obvious national interest, the Supreme Court (makes the UK's look pathetic) overrides states' rights. They are more intensely patriotic as Americans (not Californians et al) than any nation I have encountered in all my travels.
Corruption? Please. Every nation in the world - including the UK - is corrupt in its systems and structures, and as predicted decades ago, corporations are more powerful than governments.
Today's random example? British pilots embedded in coalition air forces have been bombing Syria and the PM knew. Does it represent a betrayal of Parliament's decision not to commit forces there? Not according to the PM, as they are effectively "foreign forces" given they report to foreign officers.
It's all a racket. Time to understand that.
Corruption? Please. Every nation in the world - including the UK - is corrupt in its systems and structures, and as predicted decades ago, corporations are more powerful than governments.
Today's random example? British pilots embedded in coalition air forces have been bombing Syria and the PM knew. Does it represent a betrayal of Parliament's decision not to commit forces there? Not according to the PM, as they are effectively "foreign forces" given they report to foreign officers.
It's all a racket. Time to understand that.
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- pigs-might-fly
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Re: after the Greeks ...
Anything which makes Brexit more likely is OK by me.
Location: The Dukeries.
Re: after the Greeks ...
Ditto. This absurd, economically illiterate experiment needs to end before it drags an entire continent's people with it.pigs-might-fly wrote:Anything which makes Brexit more likely is OK by me.
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Re: after the Greeks ...
I've come to that conclusion, as well. The whole EFTA was a great idea but the politicians and bankers tinkered too much and created something else. Something that doesn't work half as well as the original, and very often, best, idea.
Re: after the Greeks ...
What are you suggesting then? That all Euro countries revert to their former currencies? Sounds fine on paper but there isn't a process for a country to leave the Euro and I cannot see how it would happen in practical terms. How would it work?ChrisM wrote:Ditto. This absurd, economically illiterate experiment needs to end before it drags an entire continent's people with it.pigs-might-fly wrote:Anything which makes Brexit more likely is OK by me.
I am in agreement that the UK leaving the EU would be a good thing.
Re: after the Greeks ...
There's no way - in my opinion - that all EZ countries would revert to their previous currencies. Some will through sheer force of economic pressures.
The fact there isn't a process is irrelevant in the sense that (a) they don't want it to happen, (b) not only is there no process, but it is actually illegal under EU law for many features of Greek bailout have taken place, yet they did. The IMF are applying huge pressure for the Greeks to receive debt forgiveness - again, illegal under EU law. (c) EU lawyers said it was illegal for the UK's £1 billion held in the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism to be used for the Greek bailout, but that's the EU's stated intention anyway.
They will do what they want to do.
The fact there isn't a process is irrelevant in the sense that (a) they don't want it to happen, (b) not only is there no process, but it is actually illegal under EU law for many features of Greek bailout have taken place, yet they did. The IMF are applying huge pressure for the Greeks to receive debt forgiveness - again, illegal under EU law. (c) EU lawyers said it was illegal for the UK's £1 billion held in the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism to be used for the Greek bailout, but that's the EU's stated intention anyway.
They will do what they want to do.
Mañana
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Re: after the Greeks ...
Greece will just be a Third World / Zombie country from now on....
The real answer would not be for Greece to ditch the Euro, but Germany.
That way the rest on the "Euro countries" would be more competitive against a strong deutschmark.
anyroads
The real answer would not be for Greece to ditch the Euro, but Germany.
That way the rest on the "Euro countries" would be more competitive against a strong deutschmark.
anyroads
Re: after the Greeks ...
I wonder why the politburo were so keen to admit Greece into the club in the first place. Not much of a record in trading and they were well aware the figures were being fiddled. Perhaps it was empire building in the same way as some of the third world East European countries have joined.
Actually Greece was toddling along nicely before they joined the EU.
Actually Greece was toddling along nicely before they joined the EU.
Re: after the Greeks ...
They were making statements at the time to the effect 'How can the cradle of democracy not be in the Eurozone?' It's all part of the political paradigm/bubble these elitists live in, and has nothing to do with a sound economic business case. Look what it did to Greek society. It's a great example of what happens when politics and economics disconnect. Tragic in its' consequences, as the elitists merely get to move onto the next EU post and round of 'business' engagements. Including the Greek elite. It's not business as business people understand the concept.
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