400,000 EUROS FOR A 220SQ M BUILD??

[lorraine]

We are proposing to build on an albeit sloping plot, an average villa of 220sq m, 3 bed 3 bath and the cheapest quote for the build is coming in at 400,000 euros, what does everyone in spain think?? Is this about the right price or should we look further? if you have built in spain and can recommend a reliable firm please pm me, or are we being unrealistic, we realise that a not so flat plot means extra cost but how much???ps we already own the land , so costing is just for the build.

[hillybilly]

Seeing as that works out at €1818 per sq m that does seem a little high!
However, you say that you have a sloping site so, I imagine you have an engineered foundation solution which will of course be more expensive than the norm. If access to the site is difficult that will also bump the price up. And your individual requirements may be very specific too (gold-plated taps, power showers, expensive granite, electric persianas, swimming pool...?). Also does this include running in new services from some distance? Architect's fees?
If you have a detailed schedule of works, specification and drawings so that you are absolutely sure that everyone is quoting for the same thing, then all you can do is get in as many quotations as you have the time and energy for. If quotes are still coming in astronomically high then ask your architect to explain why this is. Good luck!

[lorraine]

Access is direct to site, we do not want any fancy works ie no gold plated fitments, just purely middle of the range, the electricity and facilities are all on sight, have spoken to architect and so far not too happy with response, we have already paid most of his fees upfront! thanks for the advice anyway

[lorraine]

ps, been told they include not just the 220sq m for the villa but also the 200 sqm for the pool, surrounding terraces etc in the costing, this does not seem right to us, maybe we are just too british!!

[jpinks]

The price seems very high indeed. I am amazed at how easily people pay for services up front. Do you also pay for next weeks groceries and petrol in advance? It is not unreasonable to pay a 10% deposit to a professional when you place your instructions, and the rest *after* he has done the work. I think I'm in the wrong profession

[lorraine]

Architect came highly recommended by a very large firm in costa del sol and we have been doing stage payments, final on completion, so far 20,000 euros, we wont be paying anymore until we are happy and if we are not happy he wont get anymore work from the very large company , so I think he will come up with the goods, just wanted some opinions, do you normally include pool area in overall costings?? after all we dont need it plastering or lit up! and no bathroom or kitchen in it!! It is very difficult when you are in the uk and trying to build in a foreign country.

[nevada smith]

look, you're not going to like this from the previous postings concerning the architect project... but, you're going to have to be a little bit more lucid about where you expect the costs of the pool & 200 meter of terrace to be 'costed out'... what exactly does "too british" mean... pools & terraces are not included in the costs? i'm really lost here... i have no idea what you want, what an 'average villa' is, or how you could work with an architect ( or anyone for that matter) for 18 months and not know what you're doing...

[hillybilly]

If you take the pool (what size/type?) and terraces out of the price you have been quoted, what are you left with for the house?
I hope that, for the money you have already parted with to your architect, that he/she has prepared a very detailed, itemised schedule of works, for builders to price against each item as far as possible for comparison purposes?

[silver]

What price for building is stated on the Architect project??

[lorraine]

I have been told that the price submitted to the town hall is always lower than the actual price as tax is payable on it! the price declared is 142,000 euros, three times less than the actual one.

[lorraine]

sorry hillybilly didnt mean to ignore your question, good point! quotes currently in spain being looked at! we are going to request that they are sent to us, may be posting more questions re translation of building materials etc!! spanish at evening classes not that advanced!

[hillybilly]

That doesn't answer the question though of "what will you be paying for the house?", not "what is being declared?"

As an aside, vastly underdeclaring the value of works, whilst it will save you some money in the short term, is likely to cost you a lot more money (taxes) in the long term - like the underdeclaring on the sale of already built houses.

Not wanting to seem rude (but probably will!), who exactly is in charge of your building project? It should be you. I realise it is difficult particularly if you are in the UK (?) but remember it is your money paying for this. Who told you to underdeclare the value of the works by this amount?

[silver]

lorraine the price submitted to the town hall is always lower..this is so
All the building quotes you have should come detailed in various sections.. preparing land, foundations,roof, electric, plumbing etc...if the pool and other extra work are in the project these would be detailed and quoted too. There is also a safety section, and it is possible, considering your slope that this has boosted your price. Take a look at each section of your quotes and compare..if they are all very much alike its possible that the price you have been quoted correct according to the details of your project. Look at the details yourself..the quality/make of each and every minor detail will affect the end price... some of these details can be adapted to suit...

[lorraine]

the architect says we have to pay the tax on the declared cost of the build, I really dont know if this is the same as the price being on the escritura, must be honest as we do not really know the spanish system we have been largely in the architects hands, I have made it clear to him that we are the ones paying for the project and that he is working for us, but sometimes it just feels the other way around! as I said we had been recommended this guy by a large firm and should have had no reason to doubt his advice, but at the moment we do. I was really wondering if anyone had experience of builds on a sloping site and how much difference they make, also if anyone can pm with a builder that they have used and would trust and recommend, as we are inclined to get more quotes, this one has so far been the cheapest, but lets face it I think that each of those involved would like to be making a bit more and preferably at our expense!

[hillybilly]

Lorraine - what foundation type has been designed to cope with the slope? This will determine the cost.
Is it just stepped strip/trench fill foundations? Pad and beam? Pile and beam? Ground anchors?
I assume there are also engineered retaining walls if the slope is great and that your ground floors will be suspended precast concrete beam construction rather then groundbearing cast in situ?
A sloping site also requires adequate drainage provisions.
All these details should be shown on your drawings.

[nevada smith]

excuse my previous posts & i'll have another go...
hillybilly is right on target here -
excavation, foundation, drainage, retaining walls, geo survey and you haven't even started the 'house'...
as for quotations - 1st, how much did the architect say this project will cost? (should be the sum total on last page of 'memoria')
if the plans have been drawn, accepted by you and approved by the town hall (you have building permit in hand) then you owe the architect his fees which should be 12% to 15% of his total estimate in the 'memoria'.
personally, i would not recommend that you start this project until you can place someone "on site" to act on your behalf and in your best interest.
after all, this is one of the most expensive investments we make...

[lorraine]

gosh lots of questions that I cant answer, but will be interesting to look at the quotes when I receive them from Spain, have also had a very interesting couple of pm one of which suggest a possible builder, we are awaiting a revised quote but are worried about what we are going to lose out on with the revisions, the retaining wall is being taken out and the whole villa dropped down , so we lose the basement area, we thought paying this architect to supposedly be on our side that we would feel he was on our side, so far not so sure and to start all over means paying all over! well will keep all of your messages and come back to all of your brains when I can answer a few of the questions raised, isnt it lovely to find some friends in spain!!

[hillybilly]

the retaining wall is being taken out and the whole villa dropped down

Yes, it certainly will be, if you remove the retaining wall. To the bottom of the slope

[nevada smith]

two items:
1. you should have a copy of all the plans & the memoria in your hands in england...and the quotation when you decide on the builder...
2. is the 'basement' included in the 220 sqm...? & is the house one or two storey...?

[El Cid]

I recently built a house on a sloping plot, so maybe my experiences may be of help to you.

Since it was rustic land it took a little more time to get the building licence sorted – about 15 months in total. The architect prepared the Projecto Basico for submission with the application for a building licence within a few weeks after we had agreed the designs etc. The work on the detailed Projecto de Execucion took some time but as we were waiting for the licence this was not an issue.

We had 6 building quotes, the highest being more than twice as much as the lowest. (No prizes for guessing which one we took). Our house is essentially single storey but, as it is built on a 15% slope, it has an underbuild as large as the main living area. The “house” is 150 m2 (measured internally) but there is a 4 car garage, utility room and pump room which adds another 85 m2 making a total of 235 m2. There is also a void of 65 m2 that could be converted (building licence permitting) to a 65m 2 appartment making a total construction on 2 floors of 300m2.

The ground was excavated to provide a flat platform to build on. There was no need for a retaining wall in front of the house as it was built on a firm base. There was a retaining wall at the rear which also formed part of the structure.

The total building cost was 250000 euros of which one third was for the “urbanisation” which was the cost of terraces, garden, perimeter walls and pool etc.

The amount declared on the building licence was much less than this and was in accordance with the minimum guideline figures set by the Ayuntamiento which was 145 euros per m2.

The architect charged 9% of the actual total project cost.

We also had all the various geological surveys and concrete tests in accordance with the new 10 year building insurance which added another 4000 euros.

We never paid the builder any advance payments. Every month the architect, the builder and I would agree the amount of work that had been done., The building quotation was entirely on a unit price basis. If he had built 59 m2 of wall at 50 euros/m2 then that is what was paid (less a 5% retention).

The architect supervised the building work and visited the site at least twice a week.

Once the building work had been completed to my and the architects satisfaction, the necessary licences were issued and the builders retention repaid.

As for the price declared on the Escritura de Obra Nueva, this again was the minimum that could be justified based on the project cost. This reduced the taxes payable (in Andalucia that is 1%) and the other legal fees. As we are residents the question of capital gains tax in the future is not an issue.

Sid