immigration into ceuta/melilla

[Grouser]

People talk about economic migrants as though they are intrinsically bad. If you were living in a third world country with scarcely enough to eat and no glimmer of hope for your future while some hundreds of miles to the north people lived like kings (comparitivly) wouldn't you do your level best to get there? The only possible way this problem can ever be solved is to give these countries a level playing field for world trade and for us to do our very best to help them flourish, so removing the need for them to migrate. Most people don't want to leave their homes and families, it's only desperation making them.

[Guest]

I don't think Cannydanny is saying that these would be immigrants are intrinsically bad, rather that it would be very bad policy to allow them to cross European borders without some stringent form of control, we can't just let them in because their own government has let them down.
There is massive potential in the North african continent for tourist growth but because they don't think and behave like us they are unable to visualise and convert that potential into income.
I agree with Grouser that every one has the right to a decent life, on the other hand I agree with Cannydanny that you can't just allow free passage to someone just because they need it, they have to earn that right, as we in Europe earn it by toeing the social behaviour line.

[Guest]

Just thuoght you might like to read this in todays Daily Mirror read it here www.mirror.co.uk the article is entitled "Sex slaves sold at Gatwick" this is the reason why we must have tight border controls!

[fullmonty]

"Sex slaves sold at Gatwick" this is the reason why we must have tight border controls!

I doubt whether strict border controls would have helped in this particular case since the girls (and presumably immigration) thought they were coming here on holiday.

I am also surprised to find that they were auctioned on the airport premises. Did nobody notice? What were all those police with guns and private security people doing whilst this was going on? What were the coffee bar staff doing? Don´t tell me everyone was getting a slice of the action?

I am disgusted theat people from my home town had sex with these girls and didn´t bother reporting it. (Since neither spoke English their customers must have some sort of an idea what was going on).

Dave

[Guest]

As I understand it many of these "Eastern Europeans" are in Britain illegally anyway and, as can be clearly seen in this and other cases they have a total disregard for the laws of other countries, i agree that they should not be allowed into Europe without extensive vetting, in this particular case the punishment was excellent!

[Grouser]

Syd I don't think it's just their own goverments that've let them down, although many have their greasy fingers in the pie. The poorer the country the bigger the temptation for corruption. However the World Bank and multi national companies also bear a lot of responsibility. African countries are drained of raw materials by oil and mining companies with none or little of the money filtering down to the mass of the people. Other huge problems are created by unfair marketing practices such as the subsidised cotton farmers in the US and the sugar beet producers in Europe, so the Africans don't get a chance to export produce on a level playing field. We rich countries have a duty of care to the poor, because of our rich and privileged position and should be helping to enpower them within thier own countries, not ripping them off.

[Guest]

Syd I don't think it's just their own goverments that've let them down, although many have their greasy fingers in the pie. The poorer the country the bigger the temptation for corruption. However the World Bank and multi national companies also bear a lot of responsibility. African countries are drained of raw materials by oil and mining companies with none or little of the money filtering down to the mass of the people. Other huge problems are created by unfair marketing practices such as the subsidised cotton farmers in the US and the sugar beet producers in Europe, so the Africans don't get a chance to export produce on a level playing field. We rich countries have a duty of care to the poor, because of our rich and privileged position and should be helping to enpower them within thier own countries, not ripping them off.

I with your agree with your sentiments 100% but these are still not reasons to have an open door immigration policy.
On the other side of the coin look at what's happening in Uganda the people responsible for the financial troubles there are the so called leader and his musclemen they and they alone are responsible for what's happening in that country, Where are Bush and Blair when you need them, oh sorry I forgot they're busy ripping Iraq off!

[Grouser]

I don't think I ever advocated an open door policy ( that is just a bit too utopian for the present), just a more tolerant and sympathetic attitude towards the migrants, most of whom see it as the only choice they have left.

[Guest]

I don't think I ever advocated an open door policy ( that is just a bit too utopian for the present), just a more tolerant and sympathetic attitude towards the migrants, most of whom see it as the only choice they have left.

No you didn't, I was stating an opinion, but tolerance and sympathy has got us into the present mess, we now have adolescent children pulling guns in class on their teachers, British born asians attempting to blow innocent people up, fifteen thousand German construction workers are on the dole because their jobs are being done by unqualified Turks at a lower rate of pay, and all kinds of other idiots *beep* in our faces, in my opinion and others, including you, rightly, will have theirs, until we have the house in order we can't invite guests.
These are hard lessons but the French and Germans are now paying for the mistakes of thirty- forty years ago, son it will be our turn! Are you aware that there is now an Asian lobby in Britain demanding Sharian law in certain areas of their daily life which would effectively give them seperate powers to deal with their own kind, WHY?
I stand by what I say we cannot allow every Tom, *beep* and Harry (or Ali) to enter the EU just because they have hard lives.
Don't you think that the best way to handle this would be to make sure that people like Bush and Blair are never allowed to control world politics as they currently do, in my opinion they are both criminals, THEY have the power to help ease suffering and promote advancement in the less developed areas of the world, yet they do not, I think I've said enough now, no offence or insult intended to anyone, but these points I feel very strongly about, Syd Barrett.

[Grouser]

Syd, I think your point about politcians who pose as world leaders is well made and money spent on criminal wars could have been used to much better effect on the causes of world poverty. However despite some drawbacks I think a multi cultural society can bring many benifits and cross fertilization of ideas too. I find it a delight to be in a city street and see people from all over the world. After all we are all citizens of planet earth and it's just an accident of birth where we happen to arrive. But I reiterate that I quite see that it's impractical to have an open door policy on immigration at this stage in world history.
On the particular issue that started this thread, as a point of information, it seems that the the ones that didn't get over the fence got a free ride to the middle of the Sahara Desert and got dropped off there, where they would have died had they not been stumbled on by rebels (Western Sahara {Polisario?}group I think).
I guess we have to agree to disagree in one or two areas.

[Guest]

The members of the forum might like to read, if they haven't already, todays Sur in english the story titled "Youth attacks", can we really have sympathy for people who are prepared to act in this manner?

[Susan2]

Sadly, no. Spain applies EU regulations to its own benefit, as do the other 23 countries (excepting UK who are so tied up in knots). The european nation states seem to have the right idea - it seems quite tough and harsh but they do it nevertheless. Who can blame them?