Pensioners prescriptions

[El Cid]

Another question has occurred to me regarding the fact that expats will need to have fiscal residency to be able to access public healthcare in future. How will this affect recent arrivals who won't have had time to establish fiscal residency?

For example, if a British pensioner moves to Spain on 1st January 2013, they will not be able to submit their first tax return until June 2014, although they should be able to qualify for free healthcare with an S1 from day one. Would they not be able to get a tarjeta sanitaria for 18 months under the proposed new rules, and if so, wouldn't that be against European law?

The fiscal residency question is just a possibility at this stage but the minister has mentioned it.

I don't see any problems with pensioners having an E121/S1 as it is quite clear that they have moved permanently and the Spanish government gets about £3500 a year for them from the UK. Once you submit that form you are on the system and it would become very difficult to claim that you were not a fiscal resident. Yes, it takes time to get the first declaration in and it usually involves HMRC with the FD9 process but it always happens eventually.

It's the grey area in between that could have problems. The other question the minister raised was that some people (depending on the local rules) seem to get health cover just by signing on the padron. She expressed a need to tighten up on the rules for signing on the padron and it wouldn't surprise me if in future, being on the padron was linked to the tax office which it is not at present.

In theory you can only sign on the padron if your habitual home is in that town and having a habitual home in Spain would deem you tax resident. This rule has been flaunted by many town halls in the past just to get the maximum number of people on the padron to increase the subsidies from central government.

Sid

[gus-lopez]

Another question has occurred to me regarding the fact that expats will need to have fiscal residency to be able to access public healthcare in future. How will this affect recent arrivals who won't have had time to establish fiscal residency?

For example, if a British pensioner moves to Spain on 1st January 2013, they will not be able to submit their first tax return until June 2014, although they should be able to qualify for free healthcare with an S1 from day one. Would they not be able to get a tarjeta sanitaria for 18 months under the proposed new rules, and if so, wouldn't that be against European law?

The other question the minister raised was that some people (depending on the local rules) seem to get health cover just by signing on the padron. She expressed a need to tighten up on the rules for signing on the padron and it wouldn't surprise me if in future, being on the padron was linked to the tax office which it is not at present.


Sid

It defies belief ,The minister needs to brush up on Spanish law ! Makes you wonder whether she even read the law that they've just voted onto the statutes book.
It is not ' local rules ' it is the only requirement under Spanish law ,registration on the padron. This goes back to the Ley Orgánica of 2000 , article 12 , here;

http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_dato ... 1.html#a12
In English;
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/pdfid/402237554.pdf

& now all updated in the 2009 Ley de extranjeros;
http://www.tt.mtin.es/periodico/LEY_EXT ... 009%29.pdf
Same article number.
The reason that Rajoy had to get it on to the statute books is that the time was up for the proceedings issued against Spain in regards to Valencia & Andalucia not allowing spaniards & foreigners access to healthcare which they are entitled to under EC law.

[El Cid]

It is not ' local rules ' it is the only requirement under Spanish law ,registration on the padron. This goes back to the Ley Orgánica of 2000 , article 12 , here;

Very true but that reinforces my point - the law says that you can only register on the padron if you live permanently in Spain.

The "local" rules seem to be that you can register on the padron if your pet dog spends more than 24 hours in Spain!!


Also if government departments don't understand the law then why should ministers be any different?

Sid

[katy]

My Daughter had to become empadronamiento in order to buy a car even though she was not living there.

They do seem to cross reference the padrón. We signed on sometime in the 90's..lived in 3 houses after then but we received voting slips to our correct address even though we never bothered to update it

[El Cid]

My Daughter had to become empadronamiento in order to buy a car even though she was not living there.

Exactly the point - only fiscal residents are actually allowed to buy cars in Spain. However, in the interests of stimulating the car trade, exceptions are made and in this case a (technically illegal) padron certificate is accepted.

It is a right old mess and has been so for many years. One day it might improve but I doubt it.

Sid

[Stoker]

The British Embassy website has a page about registering on the Padron

http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for ... ain/padron

It says "It is obligatory by Spanish law to register on the padrón at the Town Hall where you habitually reside,"

So it depends on the definition of "habitually". It doesn't say permanently.

My wife and I have registered on the padron but we do not live in Spain permanently. We own an apartment which we go to on a regular basis.

We also have a neighbour who owns a car in Spain but as far as I know is not registered on the Padron.

[El Cid]

So it depends on the definition of "habitually". It doesn't say permanently.

My wife and I have registered on the padron but we do not live in Spain permanently. We own an apartment which we go to on a regular basis.

Habitually means that you live in Spain more than you do in any other place. It's that simple.

If you have a place in Spain and a place in the UK and spend the majority of your time in the UK then that is your habitual residence.

If you spend most of the time in the UK then you are not entitled to sign on the padron =- whatever the town hall might say.

Just add up the days spent in each location - which is the larger - Spain or the UK.

Sid

[Martin Page]

Sid .. I have raised this issue before … but not ALL of us spend our time divided between two EU countries!
Your Argument is only applicable for the majority of cases … I have had many discussions with international tax advisors , and its really isn't clear cut.
Take as example someone like Richard Branson. where they spend differing and variable amounts of time in different countries and continents. The only person that can decide your tax position is really you, within the laws of your specific circumstances.
You can also manipulate those laws to you own convenience too .. specifically to comply with not being tax resident in each country IE 5 months in Spain , 2 months in the UK and 5 months In Turkey

[El Cid]

Sid .. I have raised this issue before … but not ALL of us spend our time divided between two EU countries!
Your Argument is only applicable for the majority of cases … I have had many discussions with international tax advisors , and its really isn't clear cut.
Take as example someone like Richard Branson. where they spend differing and variable amounts of time in different countries and continents. The only person that can decide your tax position is really you, within the laws of your specific circumstances.
You can also manipulate those laws to you own convenience too .. specifically to comply with not being tax resident in each country IE 5 months in Spain , 2 months in the UK and 5 months In Turkey

Yes, some people manage to qualify as tax nomads but one of the tests used to determine tax residency when the 183 day rule is not met is where your centre of economic interests and your family are.

For example, if your wife is living in Spain and is tax resident, then you will normally be classed as tax resident as well even though you don't spend 183 days in Spain.

However that has nothing to do with the padron - habitual residence in that case is where you spend most of your time. That is why a Spaniard cannot sign on the padron in the town where he has a holiday home as he must sign on where he "normally" lives.

There will always be exceptions and special cases but I think as far as most of the ex-pat community are concerned these situations are very rare.

Sid

[Martin Page]

Yes, some people manage to qualify as tax nomads but one of the tests used to determine tax residency when the 183 day rule is not met is where your centre of economic interests and your family are.

I'm sorry Sid .. that is not correct. Some countries would like to apply that, and in fact try, like Spain trying to Tax you on your world wide interests, but it is not enforceable under international Law .

But we have had this difference of opinion previously and no point in rehashing the case

[Julie]

We are not residents in Spain, but we are on the padron, and if we were not, we would not be able to do things, everyone asks for a copy of the padron when you want to do things, but to be honest its no surprise when the people we deal with ask for something ie Padron, and won't shift until one produces it, the red tape in Spain can be even more trying than in the UK

[El Cid]

Yes, some people manage to qualify as tax nomads but one of the tests used to determine tax residency when the 183 day rule is not met is where your centre of economic interests and your family are.

I'm sorry Sid .. that is not correct. Some countries would like to apply that, and in fact try, like Spain trying to Tax you on your world wide interests, but it is not enforceable under international Law .

But we have had this difference of opinion previously and no point in rehashing the case

Our views may differ but the only ones that count are those of HMRC and Hacienda and I'm pretty sure they don't agree with you!

At the final analysis it's what the local tax authorities actually do rather than whether it's strictly legal under any other law.

Sid

[Lavanda]

I have a friend who lives in Ecuador, Ireland, the UK and Spain and travels a lot and he is certainly not paying tax anywhere. In fact he specifically chose Ecuador and Ireland for the tax avoidance possibilities. However, I couldn't be doing with all that nomadic palavar and prefer to live somewhere more settled and pay the taxes — but then, I'm not rich enough to worry much about huge tax bills! Thank goodness!

[katy]

I couldn't either, when someone mentioned Turkey as an example I thought B. Hell, I would prefer to pay 50% tax than spend a few months there

[Stoker]

Habitually means that you live in Spain more than you do in any other place. It's that simple.

If you have a place in Spain and a place in the UK and spend the majority of your time in the UK then that is your habitual residence.

If you spend most of the time in the UK then you are not entitled to sign on the padron =- whatever the town hall might say.

Just add up the days spent in each location - which is the larger - Spain or the UK.

Sid

Habitually means doing something on a regular basis - we go to our apartment 6 times a year at regular intervals. To me that qualifies as habitually living in our apartment. As I understand it if you live in Spain more than 6 months then you need to register as a resident. There was no questions asked about our residency when we registered on the padron.

[El Cid]

Habitually means doing something on a regular basis - we go to our apartment 6 times a year at regular intervals. To me that qualifies as habitually living in our apartment. As I understand it if you live in Spain more than 6 months then you need to register as a resident. There was no questions asked about our residency when we registered on the padron.

You may think that's what habitually means but as far as the Spanish law is concerned it refers to your normal place of residence where you spend the majority of your time.

You are obliged to register on the register of EU foreigners after only 3 months in Spain. That doesn't make you a fiscal resident, it just gives you the right to spend more than 90 days in Spain. Under EU law, while you have the right of free movement within the EU you do not have the right to stay put for more than 90 days without some formalities - hence the registration process.

As I have pointed out, the fact that you are able to sign on the padron without being a habitual resident is exactly where the current problem is - which is why the government is planning to make the padron only available to Spanish fiscal residents.

Sid

[barry]

When with friends this last week applying for padron with rental contract they were told to come back with their NIE certificates when they had them, not had to do this before.

[alexander1]

Sorry to raise this matter again. I only found it when searching for 'Padron.' We are pensioners. Spend the maximum number of days in Spain. We own a house, (which we do not rent out) a car, have NIE numbers and pay non-resident tax, but the UK is our home. However, we have never registered for the 90 days extension.

When we first bought the house someone told us we had register on the Padron. Having read all your posts it looks as though we should not have registered. Is it possible to de-register and if so how would we go about it?

[El Cid]

When we first bought the house someone told us we had register on the Padron. Having read all your posts it looks as though we should not have registered. Is it possible to de-register and if so how would we go about it?

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it! It's not going to create any problems for you unless the taxman decides that people on the padron are tax residents but there is no indication so far that they are going to do this.

If you do want to deregister just go to the town hall and ask to be taken off.

Sid

[rafiki]

We, mistakenly, registered on the padron whilst we were still UK residents. When we moved here permanently a few years later we had a problem matriculating the car which we had brought with us. They were not going to treat us as newly arrived for the taxes on it because the date of first registering on the padron is shown. We were using a good gestor and he asked us to give him some documentary evidence of our recent residency in UK and he convinced the Hacienda we were in fact newly arrived and everything was sorted OK. Could have been expensive otherwise.