Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

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Jool
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Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby Jool » Wed May 23, 2012 1:11 pm

I believe Sid made a point on here a few months back that when you renew your green form (the one that replaced the residencia) you can ask for a permanent one and I am sure he siad it was different to the standard ones, or the wording was different

Does anyone know anything about this - what do you need to ask for? We are in Almeria province so not as hi tech as those of you on CDS.........

Thanks in advance for any help

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby El Cid » Wed May 23, 2012 1:50 pm

You use form EX 18.

There are two types of residency that you can apply for. Temporal and Permanente.

You also have to fill in the period that you have been in Spain and the date you first came to Spain. If that period is over 5 years you tick the Permanente box, otherwise you tick the Temporal box.

The form can be downloaded at http://goo.gl/XGu3p

Assuming they issue you with the new card, there will be a single line of text under your personal details which will say "Residente comunitario permanente desde dd/mm/yyyy"

I have not seen the "temporal" card but I assume it will not have the word "permanente" on it.

Sid

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knowal
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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby knowal » Wed May 23, 2012 2:04 pm

Jool, this is, of course optional.
You don't have to do anything at all, as your certificate has no expiry date, and you now are a permanent resident in Spain, having lived here for more than 5 years.

If you do choose to ask for a permanent certificate, fine, make sure that you tick the boxes:
□ RESIDENCIA PERMANENTE
and
□ Residencia continuada en España durante 5 años

They should issue the new certificate on the spot without any conditions, and they will gladly take €10.20 for issuing you with a form virtually identical to the previous one.

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby Jool » Wed May 23, 2012 2:33 pm

Thank you both for the fast replies.

This now matters as apparently under the new health legislation being rushed through by Rajoy as anyone who does not have what they call permanent residencia will have to prove they can cover their own health care and prove they can never be a burden on the system. (Info taken from UK gov in Spain website and based on phone conversation with them as well)

Kind of begs the question - if this is legal in the EU why can´t the UK do it....but thats a different topic.

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knowal
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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby knowal » Wed May 23, 2012 3:52 pm

Jool wrote:This now matters as apparently under the new health legislation being rushed through by Rajoy as anyone who does not have what they call permanent residencia will have to prove they can cover their own health care and prove they can never be a burden on the system. (Info taken from UK gov in Spain website and based on phone conversation with them as well)

Kind of begs the question - if this is legal in the EU why can´t the UK do it....but thats a different topic.
What Spain is doing to EU residents is quite clearly illegal if they have lived here, legally, for five years.
Jool, you already are a permanent resident of Spain.
...after five years of uninterrupted residence, Union citizens and their family members will acquire a permanent right of residence, which will no longer be subject to any conditions. This permanent right will be a clear expression of a European citizenship, allowing EU citizens who have developed strong links with the Member State of residence to enjoy stronger rights
Your permanent right of residence is not affected by getting any more forms.

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby El Cid » Wed May 23, 2012 4:15 pm

White Horse wrote:
Your permanent right of residence is not affected by getting any more forms.
No it's not but your ability to prove that you have that right may be helped in certain circumstances by producing it.

It's a bit like the Padron. You are obliged to register just once but if you want to prove that you are on it, you may need to get a certificate to prove it.

Sid

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby Jool » Wed May 23, 2012 5:19 pm

Thank you again - I understand what you are saying WH but they are seeking to reduce their enormous health costs and thus could make it difficult for people to have access to the health service, whereas in fact permanent residents (ie those over 5 years) are supposed to have exactly the same health care rights as spanish citizens. Hence I want to be prepared as fundamentally I don´t trust the spanish, they have proved themselves far too willing to fleece foreigners whilst smiling at them.

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby knowal » Wed May 23, 2012 6:12 pm

El Cid wrote:
White Horse wrote:
Your permanent right of residence is not affected by getting any more forms.
No it's not but your ability to prove that you have that right may be helped in certain circumstances by producing it.

It's a bit like the Padron. You are obliged to register just once but if you want to prove that you are on it, you may need to get a certificate to prove it.

Sid
If she does go for another form, she should not need to show proof of healthcare or income. Now she has been in Spain for 5 years she has permanent residence, without restriction.
However, I can see why Jool wants to be prepared, as she takes on a government which is prepared to ignore the EU law which states that anyone EU national living in the country should be treated without any discrimination, the same as a Spanish National.
It's very difficult to deal with people who break the rules, by this, I mean the Ministry of the interior officials and INSS officials, who now appear to have thrown EU law into the waste paper basket.

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby El Cid » Wed May 23, 2012 6:30 pm

White Horse wrote: who now appear to have thrown EU law into the waste paper basket.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this with regard to proof of income and healthcare which, as far as we know, only applies to new residents rather than those with existing rights of residence.

It is entirely within EU law to insist on this. Most EU countries do so, Germany France and Italy being examples. The UK doesn't but that comes as no surprise. Spain took the initial option not to do so and they have now chosen to implement the change.

What I do agree with you about is the pathetic inability of the local offices to get their act together and actually work out what they have to do when the law changes. It's not so much that they are deliberately breaking the rules, it's the fact that they usually choose to implement them whichever way they like and as this differs from office to office it results in total chaos.

Government must also take the blame for rushing the legislation through without ensuring that the staff on the ground are properly briefed.

In my opinion it will be 12 months before it stabilises. Even the UK Embassy have yet to come up with any advice apart from saying that they are working on it!

Sid

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knowal
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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby knowal » Wed May 23, 2012 6:47 pm

El Cid wrote:I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this with regard to proof of income and healthcare which, as far as we know, only applies to new residents rather than those with existing rights of residence.
It is entirely within EU law to insist on this. Most EU countries do so, Germany France and Italy being examples. The UK doesn't but that comes as no surprise. Spain took the initial option not to do so and they have now chosen to implement the change.
It is legal for first time applicants, but not for Jool. We are discussing here the case of a person who has already been resident here for 5 years, legally.
El Cid wrote:What I do agree with you about is the pathetic inability of the local offices to get their act together and actually work out what they have to do when the law changes. It's not so much that they are deliberately breaking the rules, it's the fact that they usually choose to implement them whichever way they like and as this differs from office to office it results in total chaos.
That would be a valid comment, if there had not been sweeping changes made on April 24th, which is when the offices started treating EU citizens prejudicially. All was fairly OK until then. Instructions appear to have been put out not to issue any documents, but file the paperwork. you'll see examples of this on various other forums.
El Cid wrote:Government must also take the blame for rushing the legislation through without ensuring that the staff on the ground are properly briefed. In my opinion it will be 12 months before it stabilises. Even the UK Embassy have yet to come up with any advice apart from saying that they are working on it!
Which is good reason for Jool "not to trust the Spanish" - her words, not mine, but they are justified.

Personally, I am not currently affected, but it is very unsettling , and unnecessary stress to people who have an absolute right to live here, without being subject to any conditions, after living here for 5 years.

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby El Cid » Wed May 23, 2012 8:20 pm

White Horse wrote:
That would be a valid comment, if there had not been sweeping changes made on April 24th, which is when the offices started treating EU citizens prejudicially. All was fairly OK until then. Instructions appear to have been put out not to issue any documents, but file the paperwork. you'll see examples of this on various other forums.
Sorry again I disagree. They are not treating EU citizens prejudicially - they are just conforming to EU law.

The reason they are not issuing any documents is because, as I said, they haven't yet thought out the procedures. You could argue that it is better to wait than get it wrong. My concern is that they will wait and still get it wrong!

I am not trying to defend their actions as such but it is quite wrong to suggest or imply that the changes to the law are illegal or prejudicial as they clearly do conform to the EU Residency Directive issued 5 years ago and which applies in many other EU states.

Sid

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby markwilding » Wed May 23, 2012 10:01 pm

Jool,
Are you not working here in Spain? because if you are then you should have the medical card and you should be covered and not have to prove your ability to pay.
The problem is if you become unemployed and you'll only be covered for three months after you stop paying social security. Even then you should still have rights to the service if your husband is paying.

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knowal
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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby knowal » Wed May 23, 2012 10:33 pm

El Cid wrote:Sorry again I disagree. They are not treating EU citizens prejudicially - they are just conforming to EU law.

The reason they are not issuing any documents is because, as I said, they haven't yet thought out the procedures. You could argue that it is better to wait than get it wrong. My concern is that they will wait and still get it wrong!

I am not trying to defend their actions as such but it is quite wrong to suggest or imply that the changes to the law are illegal or prejudicial as they clearly do conform to the EU Residency Directive issued 5 years ago and which applies in many other EU states.

Sid
This is my final attempt to be properly understood.
For residents that have legally been here for 5 years+
However, after five years of uninterrupted residence, Union citizens and their family members will acquire a permanent right of residence, which will no longer be subject to any conditions. This permanent right will be a clear expression of a European citizenship, allowing EU citizens who have developed strong links with the Member State of residence to enjoy stronger rights.
SOURCE
Therefore, messing anyone around unnecessarily, who has been here for more than 5 years is prejudicial, AND unlawful.

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby Gasman » Sun May 27, 2012 12:05 pm

"from MarkWiding
Jool,
Are you not working here in Spain? because if you are then you should have the medical card and you should be covered and not have to prove your ability to pay.
The problem is if you become unemployed and you'll only be covered for three months after you stop paying social security. Even then you should still have rights to the service if your husband is paying."


We have just closed down our autonomo so neither of us is paying Social Security, and we have informed the local Centro de Salud - we are informed that as EU citizens, registered as resident, after the initial 90 days, we are indeed covered for Health Care, BUT only in Andalucia!!! Not sure how they go about that ... :wave:

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Re: Green "residencia" versus permanent "residencia"

Postby markwilding » Sun May 27, 2012 10:34 pm

Thanks for answering
Good luck in the near future and I hope it turns out well for you both.


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