Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

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nevillewillmott
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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby nevillewillmott » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:23 pm

Hi Eric

I did not realise that you are based in USA and so do not benefit from the 19% tax rate and and are unable to offset expenses, as is the case with EU nationals. As you say, after Brexit, all bets are off. Brexit is a tragedy on so many levels that its potential to negatively affect my tax affairs is a truly minor consideration

While reading around the subject, I noticed that Spanish income tax rates (which of course are graduated) have a lowest rate of 19%, hence my question. Perhaps the 19% rate of tax for rental income and the 19% bottom tax rate of income tax is coincidental

I tried to save my return, but have not tried to retrieve it yet

My return for July/August/September was completed on 1st October. As yet (12th October), the assessed amount has not left my Spanish bank account. Do you know the payment date for this type of tax?

Regards

Neville

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby ericsbcn » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:37 pm

Hi Neville,

How do you do the payment when you submit the form? I usually do "To Deposit" and then press the "Complete Payment" button. When I'm finished, I check my bank account and see that the amount has been debited immediately. If you use the Direct Debit option, I'm not sure when the money is actually debited from your account. Maybe ask your bank?

Thanks
- Eric S.

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby kevintosh » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:11 am

Hi Neville,
I had a similar query about when the payment would be taken for my Q3 submission as I had also thought it would be taken immediately based on what I had read elsewhere.

Eventually I managed to find a record of the direct debit details by following the link "My Records" from the AEAT main website (using digital certificate) and then selecting the "Check your direct debits" link. You have to fill in the details, i.e. Year:2018, Model:210, Period: 3T and in my case it confirmed an active direct debit with a charge date of 22/10/2018 which I am assuming will be the date payment will be taken.

I hope this helps

Kevin

nevillewillmott
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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby nevillewillmott » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:55 pm

Hi Kevin

Many thanks for that useful reply

I followed your directions and there it was - 'fecha cargo 22/10/18'

I had in fact looked at this page previously, although I was using the Spanish version. 'Fecha cargo' was not in my lexicon - it is now

Straying off topic, I find it so encouraging that people are willing to share their (presumably) hard won experience

Gracias de nuevo

Que tengas suerte

Neville

nevillewillmott
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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby nevillewillmott » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:08 pm

ericsbcn wrote:Hi Neville,

How do you do the payment when you submit the form? I usually do "To Deposit" and then press the "Complete Payment" button. When I'm finished, I check my bank account and see that the amount has been debited immediately. If you use the Direct Debit option, I'm not sure when the money is actually debited from your account. Maybe ask your bank?

Thanks
- Eric S.


Hi Eric

Perhaps you have seen the contribution to this thread by kevintosh, which nailed it

It only remains to thank you again for taking the trouble to render an arcane procedure relatively straightforward

Que tengas suerte

Neville

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Yogibear » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:09 pm

Hello. I completed a 210 form for a property that I jointly own, last November, for the year ending December 2016. I did this online last year & I am confident that I completed the return correctly, two forms for my partner & I. This was the first year of ownership. On the guide I was following, it stated that you could print out a PDF & take it to the bank for payment or pay it directly if you have a digital ID. However, on completion of the return, the monies that I calculated to pay, was taken from by bank account, & is shown as Taxes on my statement. The bank confirmed that the payments had gone through.I do not have a digital ID so was confused as to how money went out? With regards to the rentals, a return is done every quarter by a Spanish solicitor, might this mean a digital ID is in place & that is why monies were taken when I completrd the form? (I did the Non Resident tax return, as the solicitor wanted a 100 euros for me to pay 40 euros)!

Can anyone advise whether I have completed the payment correctly. Just to confirm, I am sure the forms have been completed & the money has been taken out of my account, so surely I must have paid the tax?

I am at the point of doing the return for year ending December 2017, & if I need to do anything else I would be grateful for advice. I will not be in Spain for another six months & alas I cannot speak Spanish.

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Beachcomber » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:31 pm

I assume you were paying for the period, pro rata, that the property was not rented out. To be able to make the declaration with a digital certificate you have to access a different version of the form and the first thing it asks you is to select your digital certificate. Without doing so you cannot proceed so obviously you were not going down this road but once you had completed the forms what did you do with them?

Your lawyer is probably submitting your quarterly returns with his own global digital certificate but I am at a loss to see how this could be tied up with your own submission.

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Yogibear » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:14 am

Hi Beachcomber,
Yes, I have calculated the payment pro rata for the period when the property was not rented out. You refer to different versions of the form, so I probably have gone down the wrong route! The link I went on was from your own post of Sunday January 1st, 2012 & I also followed notes produced by CAB, Spain dated 7/11/14. As per similar comments I have read, the form took some completing, but I got there in the end. I have completed forms in both mine & my partners name which have been printed off & signed & have just been filed away for the year. Three forms were generated for the both of us which we signed & dated
Given what I had read, I was going to send these over to friends in Spain so they could take them to my bank to make payment. However, as stated before, the figures I calculated for payment of the tax was taken from my bank account? So obviously I have made a payment, which is shown as Taxes on my statement. I note on the payment box of the 210 form I have put the figure for payment in box 31 & there is an account number inserted in the box 'transfer to the public treasury to Spanish account number'. So I am confused! Any further advice on this much appreciated, & also how to do the return for year ending 2017 much appreciated.

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Enrique
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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Enrique » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:33 pm

Hi Yogibear,
Please read the FAQ on the subject...........

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=27897

If you're going to send form over to be paid in a Bank don't fill in the Bank details.

For 2017 use First link in FAQ as it states.
UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity.

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Yogibear » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:19 pm

Hi Enrique,

Many thanks for this. Just to confirm, when I completed the form, under the payment details, I put an X in the box to pay in cash & consequently did not insert my bank details. There is an account number in the 'Transfer to the Public Treasury to Spanish Bank Account No in the box below. Are you saying that when I complete the form for 2017 I should not have a number in this box? ( I am still struggling to see how money was taken from my account for 2016 as I did not enter my bank details)?

Also, as & when I get someone to go to the bank to pay this, do they just need to take 3 pdf sheets printed off with the payment or is there anything else required?

Many thanks

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Beachcomber » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:37 pm

The AEAT bank account number is shown on every declaration. It is there by default and it cannot be deleted. Enrique would have been referring to you own bank details.

Are you sure that the money taken from your bank account is the payment for the non-resident tax? Is it exactly the same amount? Are you seeing this from your online banking? Can you access your online banking in Spanish? The Spanish version of online banking often gives far more detail than the English one and may say exactly what the amount is for.

Is it possible that there was a misunderstanding between you and your lawyer and that he has actually made the payment on your behalf from your bank account? It is difficult to see how the payment was made otherwise but you need to clear this up before you send the forms and the money for payment in Spain otherwise you may end up paying it twice.

All that is needed for payment at the bank is the three forms for each declaration, the money and plenty of time and patience.

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Enrique
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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Enrique » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:14 pm

Hi Yogibear,
This is where a Digital Signature(DS) and/or a CL@ve PIN would come in handy, as using one of these you can check your AEAT account and see when and how much has been taken.

See FAQ's on how to get the above DS

for CL@ve PIN see.............

https://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.i ... _PIN.shtml
UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity.

Beachcomber
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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Beachcomber » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:28 pm

The problem with a Cl@ve Pin is that it cannot be used to submit the form 210 and a Spanish mobile is required to operate it which many non-residents do not have. Overall it is far less useful than a digital certificate, especially for non-residents, but even this is not foolproof.

I know of two people with digital certificates whose non-resident taxes were paid in cash early in the year, and have bank endorsed receipted copies, but in neither case has the payment shown up on their respective AEAT accounts. I don't yet know if this is human error or a failure in the system but I intend to find out.

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Enrique » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:18 pm

Hi Beachcomber,
My submission of Non-Resident Form 210 payment took three months before appearing in my AEAT account.

Manually paid in Cash earlier in the year.
UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity.

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Beachcomber » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:52 pm

The ones that have not appeared were paid in February and March but some that were also paid in cash at the bank in August and September are already there. There is no rhyme or reason to it.

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Yogibear » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:43 am

Hi Beachcomber,
The saga of how monies were taken out of my account for NRT for 2016 still continues. Just to restate the amount was taken the day after I completed the forms, though I do not have a digital ID & I did not put my bank details on the Model 210, I put a X in the box to pay in cash. My solicitor has confirmed that they had no involvement in the NRT for 2016. I am still trying to get more info from my bank (don't get me started on Spanish banks)!
Though everyone seems not to be able to see how the money was taken from my completing the Model 210 form, it surely must have done, given nobody else has any involvement in this exercise?
I am still pursuing the bank for more details, but surely there is an audit trail to be pursued here. Money has been taken from my account & been labelled as 'taxes' on my statement. Is there any way of sending a query to the tax authorities, i.e. an email (I do not speak Spanish) with all the details I have, to see if they can trace the payment & to see where it has gone?
I have calculated the NRT for 2017 & am confident I can complete the 210 forms for the three returns I need to submit, but I am worried that I might get a repeat performance of 2016! Obviously I can get my solicitor to do the returns which in total will be less than 150 euros, but I would have to pay 120 euros to get this done!

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Beachcomber » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:51 pm

The only way of checking this would be either to get a digital certificate and check online or make an appointment online to see someone at the tax office. I believe you are currently in the UK so presumably neither of these alternatives is an option although you can carry out the accreditation of your identity in the Spanish Consul in London.

Can you confirm that the amounts taken from you bank account as 'Taxes' are exactly the same as the amount you calculated for your non-resident tax and have you accessed your online banking in Spanish to see if it gives any further detail?

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Yogibear » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:49 pm

Hi Beachcomber,

I have just come off the telephone with my bank. The amounts taken from my account are exactly the same as I calculated for the NRT. Moreover, they have confirmed that the monies relate to Model 210 for myself & my partner & they have quoted our NIE numbers back to me. they have also quoted two 15 digit reference numbers both starting 0025 relating to the payments. The bank stated that payments were made at my branch, which they were not!
That said, the person I spoke to, said she would contact my branch so that can email me with further details/documents they might have.
Not sure if this throws any more light on this issue?
You are correct that I am in the UK, probably cheaper for me to get to Spain than London!!
Will see what the local branch office comes up with.
When next in Spain, I will sort out getting a digital certificate.

Beachcomber
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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Beachcomber » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:30 pm

This is very strange. It just is not possible that the taxes would have been paid solely by completing the form and printing it out. For the tax to be paid it needs an NRC (Número de Referencia Completo) which consists of the Número de Justificante shown on the 210 form plus some further digits generated by the bank. This number forms part of a number of digits and information printed across the page as a form of receipt.

Unfortunately you can only check your record of tax payments with a digital certificate and even this isn't foolproof!

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Re: Comments and queries re FAQ for Non-resident income tax

Postby Yogibear » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:07 pm

Hi Beachcomber,
Many thanks for all your updates on this matter. As you have said all very strange!
I will see if the local branch comes up with any more info. I do not intend to do anymore on the 2016 return, I will check this next year when I have a digital certificate. Even if it transpires that they subsequently state that payment hasn't been made I hope that the tax authorities would not be too demanding given the circumstances.
I am though faced with a dilemma with the 2017 returns. I can get the solicitor to complete the admin task of putting some information into a few boxes but would have to pay 120 euros. I am confident I can complete these on line myself & it would be galling to have to pay the solicitor solely due to the payment issue.
I am tempted to complete the return for my partner's apartment to start with as the amount due is 10.32 for the period owned.


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