Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

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patricia
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby patricia » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:50 pm

Who said they were in backward poverty. The man with the Oxen has a lovely house and a 4 x 4 and he is far from living in poverty. Why do you think that large tractors for farming small parcels of land is the answer and yet these farmers make money from their Oxen and so do the people who use mules. Very patronising statement. It is a difference of owning large areas of land by a few people and a few people owning small pieces of land and farming using traditional methods! yes and long may it last. Because if not their land would be purchased and houses built on it and their livelihood taken away and as for the goat herders they are not poverty stricken either. They own their own homes and have all that they want and enjoy a way of life that we can only dream about so preoccupied many people are with technology we have actually forgotten how to live.

And as for the people who own olive groves most have sold their farm houses and exchanged them for flats in the town, but they still farm with all the latest technology ie machines to take off the olives from the tree and very few Spaniards actually live in the Campo they live in the villages and towns and as for leading donkeys up paths, most olive farmers own 4 x 4 the same as the ex-pats who live there.

Sorry what has ex-pats tarmacing their roads got to do with the lives of the Spanish!
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby Lavanda » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:33 pm

as for leading donkeys up paths, most olive farmers own 4 x 4 the same as the ex-pats who live there


Exactly. That is why the dirt tracks are being concreted. I did write that that is why there is a gradual concreting of tracks. We are agreed.

I'm sorry if you feel that what I wrote was patronising. I thought your post was rather generalising agriculture throughout Spain. You should live here for a while and then realise that what goes one in Andalusia is not necessarily indicative of what goes on in the rest of Spain.

The ex-pats do not tarmac their roads. They apply to the Ayuntamiento to get it done. Very often it is paid for by said Ayuntamiento and therefore quite a lot to do with the Spanish.

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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby patricia » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:22 pm

I have lived in Andalucia since 1995 and owned a house in Javea when there were hardly any ex-pats there I have also lived in the Alpujarras only recently been up to Orba in Alicante where they are still using donkeys and mules despite having tarmac roads.

I do no understand what your point is you are trying to make. I was speaking about what I see around here, but old fashioned farming using Oxen and Mules goes on still all over Spain. I have seen it and travel widely all over Spain Lavanda. Perhaps you need to get out and about a bit and leave the area you live in and see a bit of Spain which doesnt conform to your idea of what Spain should be like but which it is like here in Andalucia as well as other places outside of Andalucia.
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby patricia » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:29 pm

The other point I would also like to make Lavanda is that this site is called Andalucia.com not Spain.com so obviously when I mentioned farming techniques I was talking about what goes on in Andalucia, having said that they use mules and donkeys all over Spain.
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby Pamela1 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:45 pm

Yes, this subject does seem huge, it has so many twists and turns which lead to many thoughts and questions...I am curious to know why the Spanish farmers have swapped their farm houses for village homes? We have a couple of farming neighbours who go to their farms early every morning and stay all day, the wives come with them and cook in the farm homes...They leave after 7pm and only stay over night in their houses if they are very busy and want a very early start the next day...Apart from that the only occupiers are their guard dogs when they are not there.They have expensive machinery and all sorts that could be stolen. I live in an area of farming land and most farms are remote but i can't think of one single farm where the owners do not live on their farms..

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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby patricia » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:49 pm

You are right. A friend of mine bought a farmer's house with a little bit of land and olive trees which is fenced off and they have moved into the town and drive out to farm the olives and they also pick my friends olives for her and give her olive oil in exchange enough to last the whole year. They use an interesting machine to take the olive off the tree which are like rollers that run down the branch.

I think it is because it is modern with electric light showers, baths, toilets. etc. My friends had to have all that put in when the purchased the house and they can socialise in the evening and others just go at the weekend to their fincas. However the ones I know who are goat herders keep their goats on the edge of the village enclosed and go out everyday with them but live in the village.

Do you mean where the owners do not live on their farm!

Anyway for me I love to see the Oxen and Mules being used as well as the goat herders out with their animals. All part of the mixture which is Spain and that is the Spain I love.
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby flyeogh » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:52 pm

markwilding wrote:Going back to an earlier post, whether or not Spain is third world or not is not down to opinion but fact. It is not developing or even developed but is considered a highly developed one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country
.


Just a thought by those who think Spain is not a third world country: A widely held definition is: A Third World country is a country whose views are not aligned with NATO and capitalism or the Soviet Union and communism. And of Spain I think the case can be made. Capitalism requires entrepreneur-ism and I think Spain stifles that - intentionally. Just a view 8)
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby Pamela1 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:45 am

Sorry Patricia i shall rephrase, i meant that all the farms in the area where i live here in North East England ( and there are many ) are occupied by their owners..

It's probably true that many have moved into village homes because of modern comforts which may be lacking in their farm homes, perhaps the cost of modernising is too much for some against the cost of having a home in a village..Also, many may be nearer retirement age and wish to be in a place where services are easier to access and enjoy a wider social life amongst others..

I agree about watching the goats with their herders, the mules with their elderly companions...It's the traditional and old fashioned side of Spain that i love the most.. :)

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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby markwilding » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:22 am

flyeogh wrote:Just a thought by those who think Spain is not a third world country: A widely held definition is: A Third World country is a country whose views are not aligned with NATO and capitalism or the Soviet Union and communism. And of Spain I think the case can be made. Capitalism requires entrepreneur-ism and I think Spain stifles that - intentionally. Just a view 8)

I think you're confusing Spain with Albania. Spain is in NATO, and is currently a centre right member of the EU so politically opposed to Russia -There isn't a Soviet Union anymore. Not sure where you get those widely held opinions from.
As far as entrepreneur-ism is concerned, Spain has plenty of them from one of the most famous in the world to your local handyman. However, again trying to compare it to the UK is like comparing a top of the range BMW to a top of the range Ford. Neither are the best, I know which one I would prefer but neither could be considered basic undeveloped cars.

Anyway, there are many other factors which determine what a developed country is.
Last edited by markwilding on Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:08 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby patricia » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:59 am

Pamela1 wrote:Sorry Patricia i shall rephrase, i meant that all the farms in the area where i live here in North East England ( and there are many ) are occupied by their owners..

It's probably true that many have moved into village homes because of modern comforts which may be lacking in their farm homes, perhaps the cost of modernising is too much for some against the cost of having a home in a village..Also, many may be nearer retirement age and wish to be in a place where services are easier to access and enjoy a wider social life amongst others..

I agree about watching the goats with their herders, the mules with their elderly companions...It's the traditional and old fashioned side of Spain that i love the most.. :)


Yes I agree with you there Pamala. It is that they want the comforts of having electricity and water etc. and their land is not far from the villages. Yes I love to see the traditional farming ways. The Olive groves I am talking about is way over near the borders of Jaen and Granada. My friends love living in the farm house but obviously had to have it completely modernised which cost 1000´s.v :thumbup:
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby Lavanda » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:08 am

Everyone has their own pearls of wisdom to pass on based on their own experience, however, it would be silly of any of us to begin to imagine that our experience covers the whole of Spain. I hope I am not silly. In Extremadura, the smaller fincas are gradually being subsumed into larger neighbours. The law here is that if you want to sell a finca the first offer must be made to the smallest neighbour. Traditional farming methods are giving way to modern ones simply because agriculture, like so much else, is driven by economics. That Spain is still in the olive market at all is thanks to various factors but the Spanish olive will never compete with the Australian production in terms of cost-effectiveness. Of course, many small families still have their small fincas but, I guess, once the older generation die out the younger one will not be doing what their parents did. In the UK, as well, people no longer send their children up chimneys, no matter how picturesque the chimneys are.

To come back to the topic thread ...

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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby patricia » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:25 am

I have to say that half the time I do not know what you are talking about. What pearls of wisdom! A man ploughing a small piece of land with a mule; a man hiring out his oxen to plough other farmers small pieces of land. How is that the equivalent of sending children up chimneys! :crazy: There are many many people in the UK with small holdings where large farm machinery cannot be used and the people with the mules and Oxen are young! well 40´s and 50´s.

On the larger more productive farms with 1000´s of acres of land these huge combine harvesters are used as well as more modern machinery. Most large farms are subsidised. The small farmers that farm very small areas of land - just a few acres - use traditional methods just as they do in the UK. There are farms in the UK who use shire horses for ploughing. Of course the older generation who still take out their herds of goats will give way to other methods and many have. The younger generation now have goats in fields and feed animal fodder.

But what has that got to do with enjoying watching these farmers and their animals at work :shock:

"The European olive oil producers – from Spain, Italy, Greece, mostly – dominate the global olive oil trade. They are also subsidised and tariff-protected and the oils they export are typically low-quality refined oils labelled "pure" and "extra light", at lower prices than Australian extra virgin oils."

However back to what I said. I just love to see the small farmers with their goats, mules and oxen. Long may it last :thumbup: and may these people not be pushed out of the market by greedy developers.
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby Ursula » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:13 pm

"The Spanish hate foreigners, and particularly the Brits". So if you have a Spanish wife, does that mean she hates you?
In the tourist industry, hotels, restaurants, etc. they are glad to receive foreigners, especially in Andalucia as tourism is what brings in the majority of the income, and last year was a record for tourists in Andalucia, according to Diariosur.

In my experience, if the British/Germans/whoever make an effort to speak Spanish, the Spanish appreciate it more than you think, and they will even try to practice a little English, which they love to do. I find that if you are polite and treat them nicely they will treat you the same.

Funcionarios? Well, yes, most in the Town Halls / Social security, etc. seem miserable (especially so in social security)- they get fat wages, work few hours, go off for breakfast for an hour or more (as they do in the banks, too, at peak hours) and do as little as possible, as slowly as possible. Like the joke, let´s play a game called funcionarios. How does that go? Well, the first one that moves, loses. hahahah.

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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby markwilding » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:46 pm

Ursula wrote:"The Spanish hate foreigners, and particularly the Brits". So if you have a Spanish wife, does that mean she hates you?
:think:
That might be so but In my case I think my wife hates me, nothing to do with me being English though. :lol:

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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby flyeogh » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:25 pm

markwilding wrote: However, again trying to compare it to the UK is like comparing a top of the range BMW to a top of the range Ford.


Mark you seem the only person on this thread repeatedly relating everything to the UK :crazy: .

What I offered was a definition. Yes terms change meaning over time. However with such a definition you cannot conveniently ignore elements based on the fact they do not exist today. Most people I'm sure no what the definition relates to.

markwilding wrote:Not sure where you get those widely held opinions from. .


My views I guess relate mainly to being fully integrated in an extensive Spanish family and Spanish life from Asturias to Cadiz since first doing business in Madrid (Bank of Spain) and Barcelona (Caixa and VW) in 1987. Also by having to interact with Spanish authorities to assist my family, talking to Spaniards discussing views (e.g. My politically active friend in Asturias who shares much about the Gijon port project(normally has no ships :wtf: ) and why the miners didn't receive the EU money to offer them alternative employment opportunities; friends of my wife on why spanish olives are sent to Italy to be processed, with my step daughter about the fences she has to jump just to import money to Spain upon which she wants to pay tax, ................... I could go on but in short the University of Spanish life I guess.

Mark obviously you see a totally different side to Spain than me and others, and that is fine. But you're repeated assumption that some how you are more informed than other posters because they relate everything to the UK is just wearing a bit thin.

But back to topic. In spain you are right there are potential entrepreneurs but that is despite the spanish system not because of it. IMHO any country that makes having a job and paying tax so difficult, despite the willingness of the citizens to do both is leaving itself open to being described as in my terms a third world country. But I'm open to other suggestions of what we might call it but for me developed country would not be one of them :D
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby patricia » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:21 pm

"But back to topic. In spain you are right there are potential entrepreneurs but that is despite the spanish system not because of it. IMHO any country that makes having a job and paying tax so difficult, despite the willingness of the citizens to do both is leaving itself open to being described as in my terms a third world country. But I'm open to other suggestions of what we might call it but for me developed country would not be one of them :D "

I agree with you there I have to say. There is a lot of room for improvement and highly developed country isnt how I would describe Spain. Anyway that was from Wikipedia and it isnt the safest of places to take an opinion from.
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby markwilding » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:44 pm

Flyeogh
My argument is with your opinion. It seems that you haven't read through the thread and seen that hardly anybody agrees with your opinion that Spain is a third world country.
I agree that there are problems but you are cherry picking them and forgetting what actually makes a highly developed country. I could say a country that has liberal gun control and has the best hospital treatment but available only to those who can afford it could learn a little from Spain.

According to the OECD Better Life Index, Spain is a top ranking country for community and work/life balance, and is in the top tier for health care. Infrastructure, especially transport infrastructure, is some of the best in the World, and it has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.
On the downside, it scores quite low for average personal income, but only if you compare with countries like France, Germany and the UK etc. However, Incomes are still well above the global average, and unemployment is very high

Getting back to the original post, I agree that there might be some resentment and bad feeling towards us in areas where there are large communities of ex-pats but I haven't experienced this. Sometime we just have to accept that a rude civil servant is like that with everyone and has nothing to do with where we are from.
Last edited by markwilding on Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby gus » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:15 pm

Patricia,
It may well be a pleasing sight to see the farmers drift by with their goats or oxen ( but I'd suggest that's only because you don't have to do it yourself and rely on the income it provides).
Selling up to developers is usually more reflective of the land owners "greed" rather than the developers - we all know that developers are much more concerned with the improvements they bring to the community !!!

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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby patricia » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:29 pm

What a strange statement! A pleasing sight and you suggest it is because I do not have to do it myself! you do not know me at all so you cannot suggest a thing about the reason I like to see goat herds! and I have never mentioned the reason why land owners sell up. I just said it was pleasing, which it is to me, to see Mules and Oxen being used to plough the land, yes, and I do stand and watch and take photographs with my camera which I always carry with me. Also Mules are very useful for ploughing the land around the olive trees and I have seen that often on the terraces. Very difficult to get a tractor on the terraces and I have not even mentioned "greed" or developers! :wtf:

As for being a goat herder being a vegan I wouldnt keep animals for slaugther anyway would I! and my only point I wish to make is that these people who own small parcels of land do not need large vehicles to farm the land and that if these farmers were to sell up or have to leave -- which hopefully they will not - the land would be used for developing. So cheers to the small farmer around my area who farm with Oxen and Mules with their ploughs. I love the sight as well as I love the sight of goat herders and their goats. :thumbup: A" bally" great combine harvester on an acre of land. No I do not think so!

And also how do you know how much I earn. Perhaps the goat herder earns more than I do :lolno:
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Re: Spanish attitude to guiris & vice versa - chicken or egg?

Postby patricia » Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:08 pm

gus wrote:Patricia,
It may well be a pleasing sight to see the farmers drift by with their goats or oxen ( but I'd suggest that's only because you don't have to do it yourself and rely on the income it provides).
Selling up to developers is usually more reflective of the land owners "greed" rather than the developers - we all know that developers are much more concerned with the improvements they bring to the community !!!


A what yer say! :wtf:

Yours sincerely,

Katy xx
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