catalan

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olive
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Re: catalan

Postby olive » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:32 pm

markwilding wrote:I don’t get your reasoning. If the EU had the power, which they don’t, why didn’t they block the Scottish referendum.
The current Spanish government is against a change in the constitution and I wouldn’t expect them to change their opinion but I have read reports that the PSOE might consider it.
Whether or not it eould ne possible to circumnavigate the constitution, we will have to see how it all developes
That is an easy one to answer. In the risk assessment it was a given that the outcome would be remain part of UK. The same applied to what now can be seen to be Cameron's ill judged Brexit vote. Look what a mess that is turning out to be across the board.

Of course the Spanish government is against a change in the Constitution. Their masters in Brussels will have already made that observation probably when Juncker flew in and met Rajoy. You may by the way think I am slightly paranoid about the EU but they do not need pesky states trying for independence. If they had the EU army ready, it would have been quite convenient to send it in to restore order In Catalunia and save the inevitable strife that would come to pass using own police/military to do so. Thankfully that EU army isn't ready yet.

One change I do expect to see soon is a change in the various police reporting structures. One master and clear lines of responsibility.

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Re: catalan

Postby maureenscot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:52 pm

Have you all seen the awful scenes taking place in Majorca, Barcelona, Madrid and other places right now?

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:30 pm

EU army entering Spain. Spain's masters are in Brussels. :wtf:
Slightly paranoid is under-estimating it. You really must stop reading that anti-establishment claptrap you’re getting all this from.

Looking at the EU as a single entity will always throw up false information and objectives . There always will be varying opinions in any political organisations and cherry picking opinions to suit arguments distorts reality. All the 27 countries are behind Spain because its constitution dictates that it's impossible for any autonomous region to declare independence and on that basis no Country in the world could recognise them as an independent state meaning they would be isolated. Not only has The EU a responsibly to make that absolutely clear but also to make it perfectly clear that the actions of some of the police is totally unacceptable in a modern demacracy.

It is that simple and the Anti EU people looking to use this for their own ends just shows them up for what they are, complete liars. This is a centuries old argument and opinions have been formed without Europe in mind

That is not to say that it might be time for a change in the constitution but that decision will be be made by Spain and through Spanish law and process, furthermore, Spain has rejected any input from the EU. Not surprisingly, I find it Rather ironic, that brexiteers complain about lack of EU intervention when one of their main arguments is that they dislike exactly this.

Spain's tactics are exactly as they have been since day one of the democracy. It's not as if they don't have experience of anti democratic forces such as ETA trying to impose their objectives through violence and illegal pressure such as what's going on in Catalonia.

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:17 am

How would Andalucia fare if the North cut them off. Sometimes we do need to have united dialogue to make sure that the poorer parts of our nation are not left high and dry.

This is really the problem as if the affluent regions thorough Europe are allowed go it alone we could have rich and impoverished areas in what are now Countries where wealth is shared in some fashion.

The Scottish referendum, i was never aware at the time that it was sanctioned at political level though it seems it likely was, just wonder if anyone here knows who and when was this done?

Just now heard guy from Barcelona on the news describing Guardia Civil as an invading force, though i have being to Barcelona i never noticed but assumed that the same thorought Spain. Someone here will likely know?

I also noticed the Guardia Civil were involved in Spain's national day in Madrid for the first time in years, there is alot of stuff going on and i am hoping it be sorted out soon.
Puigdemont will surely have to go before any progress can be made to re-unite Spain.

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Re: catalan

Postby maureenscot » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:57 pm

Wollie, as you will see from my post on 12thOct, I mention that constitutional right to request a secession referendum. The difference, and it is a big difference, is that Catalan is not a country. There have been a lot of countries in recent years which have become independent. The Scottish government had to have quite a number of meetings with the Westminster Government after their formal request. This also included fiscal stuff and a whole raft of responsibilities. Also what would be an acceptable forms of words. Then David Cameron granted leave to have the referendum.
We all knew that David Cameron was going to grant an EU referendum. I think this made the Scottish Government very worried as they are pro EU.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:47 pm

maureenscot wrote: The difference, and it is a big difference, is that Catalan is not a country.
Maureen can you tell us what it is that Scotland has that Catalunya doesn't? What makes a country superior to a region.

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Re: catalan

Postby peteroldracer » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:58 pm

Before union Scotland was a country, Catalonia never has been.
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:18 pm

Scotland is still a country

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:30 am

So presumably the southern regions of Brazil, the Kurds, Catalunya and Northern Ireland have no right to independence. But Scotland does as it is a country.

Is a country connected with a kingdom or is there some other definition? So for example based on kingdoms could Aragon seek independence from Spain? Or is it just current countries and not as Peter suggests a historic thing?

ps. My brother is very unset by this. He wants indepedence for Cornwall but is having a hard time defining a country :lolno:
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:39 am

flyeogh wrote:So presumably the southern regions of Brazil, the Kurds, Catalunya and Northern Ireland have no right to independence. But Scotland does as it is a country.
Have you actually been following this thread? The general opinion is that under current legal conditions, Catalonia doesn't have the right to unilaterally declare independence so no, they don't have the right. That is a fact.

There is a different argument. Should they be given the right? Podemos believe so but that doesn't mean that will vote in favour of independence. The 10 per cent which voted against might have been this group.

Using Cornwall as an example doesn't help your argument. Just because there is an independence movement, does it mean they have the right to declare independence in a democratic country without legal process. At what point should it be taken seriously? And even if over 50 per cent became in favour, should the UK allow it without public opinion in the rest of the UK in favour of one?

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:12 am

markwilding wrote:
flyeogh wrote:So presumably the southern regions of Brazil, the Kurds, Catalunya and Northern Ireland have no right to independence. But Scotland does as it is a country.
Have you actually been following this thread?
Very closely and very interesting it is to.
markwilding wrote:
flyeogh wrote:The general opinion is that under current legal conditions, Catalonia doesn't have the right to unilaterally declare independence so no, they don't have the right. That is a fact.
100% agree
markwilding wrote:There is a different argument. Should they be given the right? Podemos believe so but that doesn't mean that will vote in favour of independence. The 10 per cent which voted against might have been this group.?
100% agree
markwilding wrote:Using Cornwall as an example doesn't help your argument.
First I don't have an argument. I merely asked a question. A question you appear to have ignored.

I also offered the Cornwall comment from my brother as a light hearted comment from my brother. Note smiley.

Back to my question. It is suggested in posts above that being defined as a country, either currently or in the past is relevant to being able to pursue or gain independence. I ask only for clarification of what is meant by country. Hopefully someone can answer that question.
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:20 am

Why don't you google it?

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:36 am

markwilding wrote:Why don't you google it?
Because the people who are using the term within a specific context may have their own definition. Or may have other definitions that they would add.

I find conversations are generally more meaningful if a term is defined and put into context by the originator.

I have also looked up the word out of respect for the posters.

Collins: A country is one of the political units which the world is divided into, covering a particular area of land.
Merriam-Webster: the people of a state or district
The free dictionary: a. A nation or state.
b. The territory of a nation or state; land.
c. The people of a nation or state; populace:

Obviously one can choose the definition one desires within certain contexts. But to understand the posts above all that is needed is the definition according to the poster.

Thanks anyone for any help with this.
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Re: catalan

Postby Paulinmalaga » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:51 am

Fleogh, a Mighty Riposte :clap:
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markwilding
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:05 pm

Not really, :thumbdown: As usual you missed the point
My point was you wanted an answer to the question. My light hearted response why ask posters? when googling it would give you your answer.
Which you very kindly did and gave us your results. saved us all a job.

BTW, I thought we were debating the legal rights of one area to define itself as an independent state or country. None of the above describe Catalonia

Mike Lipse wrote this in another forum which, which sums up what I believe . He is the author of Misgovernment (2017).


The Catalan authorities are engaged in an illegal act. Catalans are citizens of a nation subject to a democratically accepted constitutional order and the rule of law. It is the duty of the Catalan authorities to uphold the constitutional order and to preserve the rule of law.

There are currently no good arguments for a referendum that violates the Constitutional order. The argument for would be that Catalans are oppressed, that their rights are violated, their culture and language despised, and that they are not accepted and treated by the Castilians as equals and citizens of Spain.
None of this is the case.

The Catalan authorities are inciting and conscripting the Catalan population into an act of rebellion against a properly constituted state. This is potentially hazardous to the well-being and safety of citizens, who will not gain anything of value that they do not in fact already have as citizens of Spain: individual freedom, cultural and linguistic freedoms, the benefit of human rights, democracy, rule of law. Nothing of benefit to the average citizen will be added to this by independence.

The only beneficiaries are the leaders of the Catalonian nationalist movement. These are men (and women) of burning ambition who seek to break up Spain just to gain personal fame and glory (as founders of a new independent state). An independent Catalonia is their instrument for gaining this fame and glory. And so they promote, twist or manufacture myths and fantasies and inveigle and foster resentments and bitterness against Spain. They will be happy to cause hardship for the Catalan people and maybe martyr a few of them if that enables them to profit from that.
Last edited by markwilding on Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: catalan

Postby Paulinmalaga » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:20 pm

markwilding wrote:
This sums up what I believe
The Catalan authorities are engaged in an illegal act. Catalans are citizens of a nation subject to a democratically accepted constitutional order and the rule of law. It is the duty of the Catalan authorities to uphold the constitutional order and to preserve the rule of law.

There are currently no good arguments for a referendum that violates the Constitutional order. The argument for would be that Catalans are oppressed, that their rights are violated, their culture and language despised, and that they are not accepted and treated by the Castilians as equals and citizens of Spain.
None of this is the case.

The Catalan authorities are inciting and conscripting the Catalan population into an act of rebellion against a properly constituted state. This is potentially hazardous to the well-being and safety of citizens, who will not gain anything of value that they do not in fact already have as citizens of Spain: individual freedom, cultural and linguistic freedoms, the benefit of human rights, democracy, rule of law. Nothing of benefit to the average citizen will be added to this by independence.

The only beneficiaries are the leaders of the Catalonian nationalist movement. These are men (and women) of burning ambition who seek to break up Spain just to gain personal fame and glory (as founders of a new independent state). An independent Catalonia is their instrument for gaining this fame and glory. And so they promote, twist or manufacture myths and fantasies and inveigle and foster resentments and bitterness against Spain. They will be happy to cause hardship for the Catalan people and maybe martyr a few of them if that enables them to profit from that.
The very least you could do is Credit the writer of the above words and not cut and paste and pass them off as your own thoughts and beliefs :thumbdown:

Virtually Word for word as written by Mike Lipse ( Mark Lipse, Author of Misgovernment (2017).

https://www.quora.com/Is-Catalonia-wron ... dependence
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:59 pm

Absolutely correct. Thank you for pointing it out. I did consider it but in the end decided against it as it is exactly the same argument i make when talking to people here so I think I have the right to copy and paste something representing my views but having said that, maybe I should have pointed out who wrote the original piece.


The same as flyeoh I have had arguments many times with family members going right back to the Hypercor bombing in Barcelona in 1987 by ETA when for the first time in my life I had close family members on my wife’s side justifying reaching their political aims through and intimidation and violence.
They talk about oppression, not being able to speak in Basque However, they have total freedom of polical speech and to speak in Basque at any public institutions. I live these arguments but the reality doesn’t support them.history is quoted from Franco times quite often from people whose parents weren’t even born then

Paul I don’t want a slagging match with you or points scoring. This is a serious subject and could have serious consequences in every part of Spain. My opinions are based on studying living and working here in The Basque Country since the eighties.

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Re: catalan

Postby maureenscot » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:10 pm

Scotland had the constitutional legal right to request a referendum but not the right to unilaterally just go ahead with one. The analogy is that it would be illegal for the central belt of Scotland to hive off The Highland region for example or the Western Isles. The Highlands are the size of Wales but they are the poorer region and need to be protected from this kind of action

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:13 pm

Maureen thanks for that. Yes I remember the necessary due process being agreed by both the UK and Scotland governments last time. But I believe that a referendum in the UK only requires a law specific to the 'one off referendum' to be passed. And that parliment has no restrictions due to the UK constitution. I see no law that would need to be repealed, and nothing stopping the UK government granting Wales or Cornwall, for example, a referendum on independance. But is Wales and/or Cornwall a country (as Scotland is accepted to be)? Thus why I was interested in the definition. I believed it is not an issue but I may be wrong.

Obviously Catalunya would have to get the Spanish constitution changed. And that will take a few years. But it is a strategy. But I see no problem with them not being defined as a country. As far as I'm aware the spanish constitution only talks about the unity of Spain and does not define any type of breakaway entity.

Obviously comparisons will be made but I think Catalunya needs to get closer and compared to the other potential breakaways in the EU (OK agree it is a long shot, but at least PODEMOS and some EU right wing groups give hope for the Catalans).

Of course moral support has been offered by the SNP and I'm sure it is welcomed by the Independistas.

And of course should Scotland become independent and get into the EU that may well strengthen their hand.

But first of course they need to get out of the dead end they have driven up and do some damage limitation.
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Re: catalan

Postby El Cid » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:11 pm

Paulinmalaga wrote:

The very least you could do is Credit the writer of the above words and not cut and paste and pass them off as your own thoughts and beliefs :thumbdown:

Virtually Word for word as written by Mike Lipse ( Mark Lipse, Author of Misgovernment (2017).

https://www.quora.com/Is-Catalonia-wron ... dependence
Correct. Although it is currently missing from the site rules, quoting of copyright material should not be done unless you give a suitable credit for the source.

This will be included in the next update of the site rules.

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