catalan

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flyeogh
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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:26 pm

Two days ago, I was returning home in a taxi from El Puerto (de Santa Maria) and on the radio they mentioned Catalunya. The driver could not hold back his disgust. Just one more example I have seen of the spanish divide.

But two things I have read that give hope. First the open letter from Pablo Iglesias of ‘Podemos’ which offers lots of common sense and a possible direction of moving forward with tolerance. Secondly the words of PSC (a type of PSOE in Catalunya) leader Miquel Iceta who again offers common sense. He talks of dialog, which although 5 years too late (in his opinion), is the next logical step.

And greater hope comes as PP and PSOE start to separate. While PP seems to want blood, the PSOE seem to be offering rather more tolerance and long term vision. Maybe realistic politicians - we are where we are - are beginning to be heard?

So: Will independence be declared? Will Rajoy go ahead with Art. 155? How could Art. 155 be implemented? Will Puigdemont call an election? Is Iceta right when he says that an election will solve nothing?

Interesting times.

Anyone else seen local reaction here in Andalucia?
El raton de watford

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:40 am

So: Will independence be declared? I be surprised
Will Rajoy go ahead with Art. 155? Yes
How could Art. 155 be implemented? The big problem here be local police.
Will Puigdemont call an election? He should.
Is Iceta right when he says that an election will solve nothing? A politician who says elections solve nothing??

This is a mess and all of elected representives thorought Spain has avoided for years.
Though i am not sure i thought "Podomos" were kinda in favour of the possibility of having
a referendum a few years ago, i may be wrong with this as i am only over and back.

" First the open letter from Pablo Iglesias" can i see this on-line?
Rajoy seems to be doing pretty good with this difficult situation.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:26 am

wollie wrote:" First the open letter from Pablo Iglesias" can i see this on-line?


I've only seen it in Spanish. https://cdn27.hiberus.com/uploads/documentos/2017/10/23/_oct_a12164cd.pdf

wollie wrote:Rajoy seems to be doing pretty good with this difficult situation.


I guess we will only know if he is "doing pretty good" if he has an end game. I see no eveidence that he does, and I think that is why PSOE are beginning to distance themselves. I have also seen complaints from the Guardia Civil complaining about the impossible role they were asked to perform on 1st October. He for sure has a very difficult balancing act to perform.

One thing he seems to have misjudged is the reaction of those aginst independance in Catalunya.

wollie wrote:Though i am not sure i thought "Podomos" were kinda in favour of the possibility of having
a referendum a few years ago
They are not against the idea but they want a third option - a solution for all spanish regions giving sensible autonomy - on the ballot paper. Which is of course what many think the Catalan majority wanted in the first place.

Myself I cannot see a resolution without a mediator. Many of course have offered. But I see why Rajoy's ego cannot let him accept mediation.

But more action in the next 48 hours and then the weekend.
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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:36 pm

To me Iglesias, Podomes and others have being undecided and they wanted to be everyone's friend but something as serious as this is about being decisive, there is no such thing as a third option in my opinion.
it is either Spain as is or a divided Spain, if people need to be a debate on autonomy it should be after this is sorted. I am not informed as not there but i am thinking there is alot of division around Spain and Catalan pressed the nuclear button.
Iglesias may come out of this badly, indecision when there is crisis not the way to do things.
Next couple of days be interesting, i do hope the Catalans pull back or have an election.
What's going on not good.

ps... how do people copy in bits of message and highlight in different background colour?

Thanks

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:06 pm

wollie wrote:To me Iglesias, Podomes and others have being undecided and they wanted to be everyone's friend but something as serious as this is about being decisive, there is no such thing as a third option in my opinion.
it is either Spain as is or a divided Spain, if people need to be a debate on autonomy it should be after this is sorted. I am not informed as not there but i am thinking there is alot of division around Spain and Catalan pressed the nuclear button.
Iglesias may come out of this badly, indecision when there is crisis not the way to do things.
Next couple of days be interesting, i do hope the Catalans pull back or have an election.
What's going on not good.

ps... how do people copy in bits of message and highlight in different background colour?

Thanks


Wollie just paste the html tags to split the quoted message. To set colour highlight the text then choose the colour from the menu.

The colour in my post is a url link. Just click url on the menu and the tags will appear. Enter the url between the tags.

Not sure I get your point on Podemos. At the moment we have two opposing sides. PP and Catalan JxSi. If both sides just harden their positions I can't see why we should expect a resolution that allows everyone to go forward with a fresh start.

What PSC, Podemos and others offer is discussion, debate, tolerance and reason.

Would it not be better if Spain valued its diversity while treasuring the values that unite it?
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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:27 pm

Perhaps an aside but I just love the press, everywhere in the world.

Puigdemont is the head of a complex coalition. He has to get the opinion of all players, formulate a statement, check everyone can live with it, and only then announce it.

On Spanish TV I've heard every possible senario for his delay. Soon they'll put it down to UFO's flying over Barcelona :mrgreen: Amazing what out of work hacks can come up with to fill time :D
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Re: catalan

Postby Flexo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:26 pm

flyeogh wrote:[At the moment we have two opposing sides. PP and Catalan JxSi. If both sides just harden their positions I can't see why we should expect a resolution that allows everyone to go forward with a fresh start.

Would it not be better if Spain valued its diversity while treasuring the values that unite it?


Exactly, but PP and the Separatists are just two sides of the same coin: it is about nationalism and emotions and not logic and reason. Troublesome situation that both Spain and Catalonia let these particular people have so much sway of power. Seems like 2017 is manifesting some sort of antithesis of post modernism.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:06 pm

flyeogh wrote:
Flexo wrote:
flyeogh wrote:[At the moment we have two opposing sides. PP and Catalan JxSi. If both sides just harden their positions I can't see why we should expect a resolution that allows everyone to go forward with a fresh start.

Would it not be better if Spain valued its diversity while treasuring the values that unite it?


Exactly, but PP and the Separatists are just two sides of the same coin: it is about nationalism and emotions and not logic and reason. Troublesome situation that both Spain and Catalonia let these particular people have so much sway of power. Seems like 2017 is manifesting some sort of antithesis of post modernism.


Beautifly summed up Flexo.

Here a quote from tonight's debate in Barcelona

Miquel Iceta of the Catalan Socialist Party in the regional parliament, addressing regional premier Carles Puigdemont: "You want us to talk about the consequenses of Article 155, but the first thing to do is to talk about the causes. You should not be here today; this session should not be taking place. You should be in the Senate, and we even would have accompanied you there."
[/quote]

A voice of reason, and the leader of Ciudanos was also very good I thought

Inés Arrimadas García with the center-right party Ciudadanos has railed against the Catalan government leadership circle, noting the damage to the social fabric of the region.

“The confrontations among families, friends and work colleagues are going to take years to repair. Many public servants are already looking at being transferred to other parts of Spain, especially [those working for the] central government. You are causing sleepless nights and taking away the peace of many Catalans,” she said in the Senate.
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:51 pm

Flexo wrote:Would it not be better if Spain valued its diversity while treasuring the values that unite it?

That's what the constitution does. It gives equal status to the Catalan language, people can have separatist views without fear of persecution.
Flexo wrote:
Exactly, but PP and the Separatists are just two sides of the same coin: it is about nationalism and emotions and not logic and reason. Troublesome situation that both Spain and Catalonia let these particular people have so much sway of power. Seems like 2017 is manifesting some sort of antithesis of post modernism.

In this case though, The PP are acting legally and saying they are just a bunch of fascists is just a lazy argument which just plays into the hands of the Catalan nationalists. At no time in the past has Catalonia been a country so all its arguments are based on cherry picking history totally ignoring the fact that it took part in the most recent constitutional change and most Catalans endorsed it. They have been drip fed lies for years by self serving corrupt politicians.

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Re: catalan

Postby olive » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:11 pm

Self serving corrupt politicians! Plenty of them around. How much of our 3/4 billion ERES money has ever been recovered? None. How many of the 275 investigated over the last 5 years have been sent to prison? None. The EU should have demanded our money back. That would have focused some minds. Why they did not is another issue.

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:23 pm

Olive,
Catalan is not part of the EU. it is part of Spain. If it ceases to be part of Spain "game over"
I see from quick look at last few posts "blame game on"

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Re: catalan

Postby chrissiehope » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:01 pm

wollie wrote:
ps... how do people copy in bits of message and highlight in different background colour?

Thanks


open the Reply box, and click to get the cursor symbol showing. Then go to the post you want to quote from & click on the two quotation marks in the top right corner of the post. This will copy the whole post into the reply box, where you can edit out the bits you don't want/need. Be careful not to delete the square brackets with the poster's name in between at the beginning & the end of the quote, or it won't work. Then you type in what you want to say. Don't do what I just did, & type the message before getting the quote. or you lose what you've just typed ;-)

these are what I mean:
[quote="wollie"]
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Re: catalan

Postby olive » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:10 pm

wollie wrote:Olive,
Catalan is not part of the EU. it is part of Spain. If it ceases to be part of Spain "game over"
I see from quick look at last few posts "blame game on"


My comment was to point out that it isnt just Catalan politicians that are corrupt.

The point about the EU is it doles out our money with very little checks and control. A charter sadly for corrupt officials to divert the money. Slightly off track.

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:01 pm

But not relevent to this thread.

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Re: catalan

Postby scotty » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:06 pm

So could there be civil unrest ?

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Re: catalan

Postby Gasman » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:26 pm

Well - now I see that Mr Rajoy has got his approval to go for Home Rule, and Mr Puigdemont has gone for UDI - keep your heads down as this could turn nasty.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:12 pm

scotty wrote:So could there be civil unrest ?


As a minimum I think Rajoy will want to:

[*]take over/secure: the TV station, the IT systems building, and some government buildings.
[*]the defence plan looks like demonstrators blocking access in a peaceful manner.

For sure the Mossos are in a very difficult position. They might just say their job is to keep law and order, and that they have no resources to do more.

So, can Rajoy depend on the Guarda Civil to do the job with minimal violence?

Interesting times. Mark any feedback from your region? Or are people just watching?
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Re: catalan

Postby Flexo » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:53 pm

markwilding wrote:The PP are acting legally


So what? Does that mean that they allow a change in the constitution so Catalonia would gain independence? Don't ******* think so.

At no time in the past has Catalonia been a country


I assume you have the same policy against Palestine, right? The last non-jewish autonomous state in the region was the Christian Jerusalem, before that it was Philistine which was Gaza plus Ashdod.

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:53 pm

Flexo,
I know on many points we agree but not this It’s quite clear what Legally means. In any democracy rule of law has to be paramount. It’s the basis of the constitution that Spain cannot be broken up.
This is completely different to Palestine. I live in another part of Spain that some would like independence but most rheteric is based un untruths.

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Re: catalan

Postby Flexo » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:04 pm

Like I have stated before, I am not for the independence, I am just playing the devils advocate with all BS arguments that I see floating around. Nationhood has absolutely nothing to do with history, it is a rather modern concept. To say Catalonia has no right to statehood because it has not been a state is like taking all lands from the Aboriginals, Samis of Lapland or the American Indians and saying "You never had any statehood so FU already".


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