catalan

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wollie
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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:38 am

It seems "Mr Puigdemont" has being out-manouvered.
If he wants decomoratic opposition so he will have to run for re-election.

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White Horse
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Re: catalan

Postby White Horse » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:49 am

wollie wrote:It seems "Mr Puigdemont" has being out-manouvered.

Are you getting your info from El Pais Wollie? It is being controlled by Madrid.
Take a look at this:
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22295&LangID=E
The UN deplores the decision of the Spanish Government to suspend Catalan autonomy.

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:35 am

I posted earlier about the media as i seen a programme about this on TV a couple of weeks ago around the time this post started.
I am not so easy led, i just listen to them all and form my own opinion based on this and that's what it looks to me.

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:28 pm

White Horse wrote:The UN deplores the decision of the Spanish Government to suspend Catalan autonomy.


That's the opinion of the writer of the article not the UN's

I'm no expect on international law and the author of that article may well be correct in his interpretation but at the moment the Spanish government believes that the wording of article 2 of the Spanish constitution makes it impossible for any region of Spain to leave Spain and on that basis, Catalonia's declaration of independence has forced them to implement article 155.

Both the Catalan and Spanish judiciary have confirmed this. This means until these verdicts are overturned, this is current law. So why haven't Catalonia gone the ECHR or the UN to Clarify what the legal position is regarding international law? I suspect that having less than 50 per cent of the popular vote weakens their argument along with the widely held view that the percentage of people wanting total independence is lessening means for them it was now or never.

One of the quirks of the Catalan electoral system is that votes in smaller populations have a higher value then places like Barcelona making it perfectly possible to have a majority in their parliament without the popular vote.


Many people believe that this was never a push for independence anyway but what they really wanted was fiscal autonomy but the Spanish government is used to being blackmailed through terrorism and will not negotiate under this current situation. Whether or not they will have to capitulate this time only time will tell.

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:10 pm

wollie wrote:I posted earlier about the media as i seen a programme about this on TV a couple of weeks ago around the time this post started.
I am not so easy led, i just listen to them all and form my own opinion based on this and that's what it looks to me.


I didn't even read article about then UN as for me it is nothing to do with them, they are United Nations. catalan not a Nation...

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Re: catalan

Postby White Horse » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:53 pm

This whole situation needs negotiation and compromise. Just sticking their fingers in their ears in Madrid and saying "you can't do that, it's against the law" really isn't going to work.
What happened to "hablando se entiende la gente"?

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:16 pm

If you say so,
But surely the silent majority need a voice too. It's a pity the Ex-president of Catalonia didn’t listen to them either.

How can you say you are truely democratic if you don’t follow the law?

It suits the independence movement to shout oppression etc. Live here and you will see who the real oppressors are and it seems that the same anti Spanish laws, which favour Catalan speakers and discriminate against people who don’t, exist in Catalonia as well. people who don’t support independence are labelled facist despite being politically on the left by doctrined people whose opinions are closer to facist ideals.

Good for me because my acadamy is full of students who were told that the Basque language was essential to obtain work. Fast forward 10 years and suddenly the civil service is contracting while businesses are crying out for good English speakers.

I’ve lived it for years and have had to listen to that rhetoric for years. The Basques had the learn the hard way that civil unrest won’t work in a democracy because the main losers are themselves.The independence movement might actually be higher here but they have seen the effects terrorism has had on the economy and decided to only use political negotiation without any ‘over a barrel’ or gun to your head’ tactics because in the end people just had enough. Many people here say that they always thought the Catalans were cleverer than the Basques and were able to avoid this craziness.

Spain is a democratic developed country and very importantly the government has to respect the constitution so unless the constitution changes they themselves can’t authorise a referendum. To do that, there is a process. That same constitution protects the rights of autonomy and the government will need to devolve powers back to Catalonia as quickly as possible.

New elections are penciled in for eary December and we will see who is truely democratic. It is a chance for the whole world to see how much support there really is for independence unless of course the CUP party, who are a minority, governing through the back door, boycott them.
Last edited by markwilding on Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:36 am

Just an aside that made me smile - Girona 2 Real Madrid 1 :D . Girona - catalan, just promoted, cost 37 million vs Real Madrid who cost 657 million.

I guess there is always a little humour in even the darkest days
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:31 am

That's the dominance I would like to see curtailed. Both Real Madrid and Barcelona have too much power within the league.

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Re: catalan

Postby Manchesteral » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:02 pm

Looks like the man who would "give everything for catalonia" has done a runner after promising the earth, he has now, if the tabloid press is to believed, buggered off to a safe haven leaving those who voted for him in the *beep* ! I sincerely hope they put this traitor in Jail for a long period, he's typical of the self serving garbage existing in politics today !!
Larga vida a una Espana unida !!

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Re: Catalan secession from Spain

Postby Manchesteral » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:13 pm

Hopefully That treacherous bas tard puigdemont will be getting lots of the wrong kind of attention when he goes down (sic) !!

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:19 pm

Manchesteral wrote:Looks like the man who would "give everything for catalonia" has done a runner after promising the earth, he has now, if the tabloid press is to believed, buggered off to a safe haven leaving those who voted for him in the *beep* ! I sincerely hope they put this traitor in Jail for a long period, he's typical of the self serving garbage existing in politics today !!
Larga vida a una Espana unida !!


And how we that help Manchesteral?

I hope he stays free (just like most of the Spanish corrupt with friends in high places), and thus the election in December will be a better reflection of Catalan wishes. I'm confident that if the extremists on all sides can be kept at bay, and that sensible debate takes place, that the Catalan people will vote to stay. And then a healing process can begin.

I'm being optimistic of course.
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Re: catalan

Postby olive » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:43 pm

You don't think he has gone to Belgium to avoid the short arm of the Spanish law?

While he is there he will whip up a bit of Flemish frenzy as he awaits the extradition request.

Shame the elections weren't in two weeks time. A lot can and no doubt will happen n the next eight weeks.

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Re: catalan

Postby Lavanda » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:38 am

It's fast becoming farcical. A few politicians want independence to cover their embezzlement of funds. They distort ancient history and whip up support. They have an election and do not win a majority. They cobble together a coalition. They hold an illegal referendum supported by less than 50% of voters. They wait to see what Madrid will give them. Nothing. They declare independence. They run away. Hummmmmmm ...

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:11 am

I believe it is the best possible outcome for Spain and Europe but there are a few bits to tidy up, it be interesting to see if any of the parties run a campaign to leave Spain in this election. I think its better to have a full election campaign so there be a bit of clarity as to what the elected representatives thinking and people can vote on this basis.
Puigdemont and a few others seem to be slipping out of politics, if this takes place the debate on splitting Spain and Europe will be shelved for a long time which is what the politicians and likely most citizens as well.
Its all too convenient for me that Puigdemont's security was reported to be taken away over the weekend and then he is in Belguim, too much of a coincidence for me.
I suspect the authorities will fudge a bit and if the election has the expected result the whole debate about Catalan is over, i doubt if Puigdemont and the others will be punished beyond the fact that they will be completely discredited politically, not good to have your political opponents in jail and their families and supporters making noise on the outside.
The only think Europe need now is to find a way to stop BREXIT which i still think very likely.

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:59 am

Lavanda wrote:It's fast becoming farcical. A few politicians want independence to cover their embezzlement of funds. They distort ancient history and whip up support. They have an election and do not win a majority. They cobble together a coalition. They hold an illegal referendum supported by less than 50% of voters. They wait to see what Madrid will give them. Nothing. They declare independence. They run away. Hummmmmmm ...

That's it in a nutshell.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:23 pm

So Puigdemont will fight the election. And that by any description will be a referendum. I'd say the independistas didn't have much chance, but with Rajoy at the helm, the man who didn't see this coming, anything is possible.

Will Rajoy stay neutural? As leader of Spain he is after all leader of Catalunya so that might be best. But he has shown few signs of statesmanship to date.

And what happens if, I think unlikely but possible, the Independistas win?

Interesting few weeks to come.

I was interested how my Spanish family reacted to Puigdemont's multilingual ability and his handling of foreign press. They were very impressed. In Belgium he might be but I think only a mug would write him off just yet.
Last edited by flyeogh on Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: catalan

Postby Pamela1 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:34 pm

So if charges are brought against Puigdemont and those who were responsible for holding an illegal referendum then then how can they fight an election?..

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:25 pm

Pamela1 wrote:So if charges are brought against Puigdemont and those who were responsible for holding an illegal referendum then then how can they fight an election?..


They just put up alternative candidates.

But it will be what the government in waiting says rather than them actually standing. Their supporters know the score.

And of course nothing like a few martyrs in prison to boost support.
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:28 pm

flyeogh wrote: So Puigdemont will fight the election. And that by any description will be a referendum. I'd say the independistas didn't have much chance, but with Rajoy at the helm, the man who didn't see this coming, anything is possible.

An election is an election and referendum is a referendum both completely different



flyeogh wrote:I was interested how my Spanish family reacted to Puigdemont's multilingual ability and his handling of foreign press. They were very impressed. In Belgium he might be but I think only a mug would write him off just yet.

He’s finished. He’s promised the impossible and inevitably failed. I wouldn’t jail him, i would ban him from taking office again.
Political asylum? Don’t make me laugh :x The guy is so deep in his own lies, he truely believes his own bulls#it.
He should think himself lucky that he doesn’t live in an oppressed regime. He would very likely have been shot by now if he did. Political asylum is for people who really are in danger of torture or death due to their politcal beliefs not the likes of him who use the liberal Spanish laws to advance themselves.
Last edited by markwilding on Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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