catalan

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Gasman
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Re: catalan

Postby Gasman » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:49 pm

The demos today, asking for talking and to mediate in the problem, perhaps show some decent feelings among the average Spanish folk. One hopes that Rajoy gets the message.

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:25 am

I am thinking Carles Puigdemont made a big error of judgement.
It now seems just as likely he will resign on Tue as to declare Republic.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:42 am

wollie wrote:I am thinking Carles Puigdemont made a big error of judgement.
It now seems just as likely he will resign on Tue as to declare Republic.


Wollie have you any info/source on a resignation?

As for yesterday I'd like to see numbers of those who demo'd who wanted dialog and those who simply wanted Catalunya crushed. From pictures, family, friends and TV I get the feeling most want them crushed. But to be honest any numbers offered would of course be very suspect, and further, the noisy minority often get moreTV seconds than the quieter majority.

What I don't like is very few Spaniards with power seem concerned by the damage this has done, and are not looking for a mending of relationships. It is currently a blame game. And no one comes out of this well (possibly Podemos but they are not a player in this at the moment - well while the Rajoy/Sanchez love affair lasts).

No matter how hard it is to defend the idependistas it has to be recognised that Catalunya is the motor of the Spanish economy. And now even more of their well educated youth will march abroad. All very sad in the 21st century :(
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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:14 pm

Wollie have you any info/source on a resignation?

Just watching reports in the last few days, i do not think Puigdemont will not be tenable as he pushed the nuclear button and though he won the vote the whole process is tarnished by the fact the vote was illegal.
There was rightly an outcry as there was too much force used but that has all died down now.
The banks and quite a few industries have come out and said they would re-locate, when the harsh reality sets in the Catalan voice will be considerably weaker i think.
I never paid any attention to this over the years as i really though the vote would never happen.
Interesting few days ahead.

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:47 pm

flyeogh wrote:
wollie wrote:I am thinking Carles Puigdemont made a big error of judgement.
It now seems just as likely he will resign on Tue as to declare Republic.


Wollie have you any info/source on a resignation?

As for yesterday I'd like to see numbers of those who demo'd who wanted dialog and those who simply wanted Catalunya crushed. From pictures, family, friends and TV I get the feeling most want them crushed. But to be honest any numbers offered would of course be very suspect, and further, the noisy minority often get moreTV seconds than the quieter majority.

What I don't like is very few Spaniards with power seem concerned by the damage this has done, and are not looking for a mending of relationships. It is currently a blame game. And no one comes out of this well (possibly Podemos but they are not a player in this at the moment - well while the Rajoy/Sanchez love affair lasts).

No matter how hard it is to defend the idependistas it has to be recognised that Catalunya is the motor of the Spanish economy. And now even more of their well educated youth will march abroad. All very sad in the 21st century :(

I can also say where is your source?
Who wants Catalunia crushed?
What is this love affair between Rajoy and Sanchez? Oh, you mean on this point they agree. but if you bothered to look at the facts so do their parties in Catalonia. Surely you’d expect someone to represent views and opinions of the catalans who disagree with all this.
And who are the quiet majority? On this question we do have figures less than 50 per cent voted for the independence supporting parties at the last regional elections. In most peoples books, not a mandate for independence.

Catalonia isn’t the only economic force in Spain either. Important, it is but there are other regions as well. They enjoy a lot of autonomy already so Spain definately doesn’t display the Fracista actions of a centalist Country. Whether or not, their objective is abosolute independence or as most people believe even more autonomy with the same rights to collect the own taxes as The Basque Country, only time will tell.

One final point, the extreme Catalan independence groups also favour ultimately bringing the Velencia and Balearic regions into an independent Catalunia. These areas completely reject this.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:18 pm

markwilding wrote:I can also say where is your source?
Not sure what you mean Mark? My sources are numerous, as stated, and from them I have formulated a few views (as stated). If you think the facts below are false please say so and I'll follow them up.

markwilding wrote:Who wants Catalunia crushed?


I think namely Rajoy and the PP, and sadly a large number of Spaniards. First the government actions: encouraging/facilitating the removal of business from Catalunya, leaving an armed force in Catalunya, threatening 155, trying to charge the MOSSOS leader with sedition, and arresting politicians is a good start to the crushing process.

Further seeing placards in Madrid saying in translation "Lock ém up", "stop money going there" and "d'ont buy their products" is something to note. Especially as I see sympathy with those thoughts among my family ( :eh: ) and friends.

markwilding wrote:What is this love affair between Rajoy and Sanchez? Oh, you mean on this point they agree. but if you bothered
Ignoring your sarcism I believe PSOE are aiding PP to protect themselves. I think the PSOE silence was very embarrassing and subsequently they for party political reasons are falling largely in line *just making enough noise to remain credible. That is my view. You are welcome to take another view of course.

markwilding wrote:Catalonia isn’t the only economic ............
but with a very weakened Spain losing Catalonia would be catastrophic. Just look at the numbers for GDP, collected tax, export value, and foreign investment. In truth independance is very unlikely to happen¨, as Mas recently stated, but sadly these strong contributions will be damaged by current events.

markwilding wrote:One final point, the extreme Catalan independence groups also favour ultimately bringing the Velencia and Balearic regions into an independent Catalunia. These areas completely reject this.
Nutters everywhere :sick:
El raton de watford

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:52 pm

I didn’t ask for your opinion.
Where is your source that they want to crush Catalunia?
Last edited by markwilding on Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:55 pm

markwilding wrote:I didn’t ask for your opinion.


But actually you did. But I leave you to it.
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:06 pm

No, i didn’t .
I asked for your source that people want Catalonia crushed.

Even you you said that Catalonia is important for the Spanish economy which I have always acknowledged so why would they want to crush them But unilateral declared independence would be disastrous for the Catalan economy as well.

The PSOE and PSC position is clear and all through the negotiations with Podemos they could not form a pact because of the difference of opinion on this very point.

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:15 pm

I am not really very well informed on Spanish politics.
Is today a complete u-turn?

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White Horse
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Re: catalan

Postby White Horse » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:46 pm

I was watching live, waiting for Puigdemont to declare independence, followed by the Guardia rushing in and locking him up. Followed by immense violence on the streets. Fortunately, he had the wisdom to delay this in favour of talks, but will Madrid listen? I doubt it, so it is likely to just be a postponement of his arrest.

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:03 pm

I don't think he has any wisdom as in my opinion it was a big gamble that has backfired.
I am thinking Catalan thing over though not sure.
Unlikely anyone talk to PM who led illegal referendum.
Personally i hope Spain/Europe stays together.
I also think Brexit will likely change course.

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Re: catalan

Postby peteroldracer » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:11 pm

I find it difficult to get very interested in Spanish national politics as they do not let me vote. Local elections, yes, and I have always voted.
Perhaps post-Brexit they will open the franchise to all residents?
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Re: catalan

Postby BENIDORM » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:29 am

Bon Dia,
Whatever happens in Catalunya can and will affect everyone who lives or visits Spain, so is of particular interest to me.

Last week every Spanish visitor to our house asked us for our opinion, they are all concerned about the outcome and we have many people in our village who have strong connections in mainly Barcelona, and they are quite upset, they don't want to be independent, but they would like the Spanish Government to listen to their requests .
So...what happens next...?

Regards,
Gordon.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:28 am

Gordon thanks as always great to get some first-hand feedback.

But one possible route forward has emerged "The leader of Spain’s center-right and anti-independence Ciudadanos Party in Catalonia, Inés Arrimadas, has called for the application of Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution to convene regional elections".

Of course, there are two issues:

Article 155, if implemented in an over the top manner - there are many formsof 155, could lead to greater division?
What happens if the election improves the independistas position?

I hope the second option can be avoided if there is dialog, and the truth about the impact of independence made clear. But that needs Madrid to change tack.

But hopefully a resolution can be found before the financial damage, to say nothing of life and limb, grows too much.
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:00 am

I agree with this way forward. If the Spanish government tries to take back power, within its rights as per article 155, it might turn out to be counter productive. The problem will always be that absolutists on both sides won't budge from their positions. However, we might also discover that this bulldozing anti-democratic farce of an election has worked against the independent movement as well

In the end, the decision to draw back from calling independence was because the realities of what a unilateral decision would be. Even Nicola Sturgeon said that she understood the legal complexities on The Andrew Marr program.

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:46 pm

If the Spanish government tries to take back power?

I do not think the Spanish government have lost power but the credibility of Catalonia politics in tatters.
Puigdemont political career likely over..

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Re: catalan

Postby olive » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:40 pm

Funny thing this wanting independence. I remember feeling quite upset that Scotland wanted to vote on independence without the rest of the country having a vote. Having said that such an all encompassing vote would have only had one outcome ....remain.
One huge lesson surely learnt from Brexit is to set thresholds before any such legal vote. E.g. minimum turnout and vote of say over 75%.

At least Scotland got a vote. What do the people of Catalonia need to do to be able to have a democratic vote? I would go so far as to say they will never get one as the EU wouldnt allow it. It would open the door to the domino effect with other regions arond the EU jumping on the bandwagon. Minorities do not fit in the grand scheme of things. The irony of Catalonia asking the EU for help whilst the EU said their plea for independence was an attack on the EU wasnt lost on me.

It can and will only end one way. I just hope there aren't any fatalities.

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:53 am

I don’t get your reasoning. If the EU had the power, which they don’t, why didn’t they block the Scottish referendum.
The current Spanish government is agaiinst a change in the constitution and I wouldn’t expect them to change their opinion but I have read reports that the PSOE might consider it.
Whether or not it eould ne possible to circumnavigate the constitution, we will have to see how it all developes

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Re: catalan

Postby maureenscot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:56 pm

Look, I keep saying this. The Scottish independence vote is nothing like the Catalan one. People in Scotland were fed up with elections, where no matter if they voted overwhelmingly for Labour, in over one hundred years they rarely got the government they voted for. Then Scotland also got fed up with Westminster labour and the deference of Scottish labour, and in politicians and politics in general. During devolution, the right to request a referendum was enshrined.

Even if the vote in Scotland was in favour, it would look nothing like an independent Catalonia. Scotland would have been the poorer relation for some considerable time. The outcome says that 48% of people were willing to take that chance.
If there was for some reason, and you can never tell these days, Northern League in Italy had a massive resurgence in its northern territories. Imagine the scenario. They would campaign to kick Sicily further out to sea and hive off the south as well. Some European nations do not get it that the more affluent regions have a duty to subsidise the poorer people of their nation. That goes for southern England as well.
How would Andalucia fare if the North cut them off. Sometimes we do need to have united dialogue to make sure that the poorer parts of our nation are not left high and dry.
Agree that beating up your own citizens is not the way to go about it.


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