catalan

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markwilding
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:53 am

Sid, I have opened another thread to see if what i copied could be considered copyrighted.

wollie
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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:11 am

markwilding

There is a different argument. Should they be given the right? Podemos believe so but that doesn't mean that will vote in favour of independence.

I was not aware of this as surprises me any national political party would support such a move.

Can anyone update as to what has happened as i cannot see anything on-line for what has happened in the last few days and i not in Spain.

Thanks

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Re: catalan

Postby maureenscot » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:39 pm

There have been mass protests in different cities against Catalan independence. Yes anything is possible under agreed rulings. |I don't know about Cornwall but Plyd Cumrai ' s reason for being is for Welsh independence

markwilding
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:27 pm

In Bilbao old town his morning, I saw many Catalan flags draped from windows. Obviously no Spanish ones in support of The Spanish argument due to the real possibility of intimidation if you publically support for central government.

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:35 am

I see today is the end of the 5 day deadline so something likely happen.
I also see the police chief and others are in court today.
I find this police thing confusing and wonder which police force he is
head of, local or Guardia?
I did hear a guy being interviewed describing the police who came in
on election day as an "invading force" this force i am thinking is the
Guardia Civil we are all familar with.
Does anyone know if the Police set-up is the same in the Catalan region?

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Enrique
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Re: catalan

Postby Enrique » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:38 am

Hi wollie,

"Does anyone know if the Police set-up is the same in the Catalan region?"...........some info

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossos_d%27Esquadra
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Re: catalan

Postby BENIDORM » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:42 am

I think that the 'Mossos' were actually trying to keep a 'low profile' and most of the 'heavy handed' police presence would have been / is National Police assisted by Guardia Civil riot units.....Not the 'regular' Guardia Civil.....

Regards,
Gordon.

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Re: catalan

Postby olive » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:54 am

Monday 10.a.m. deadline has been and gone .

Fudged reply from Catalunia. Advantage Catalunia.

Now we wait to see what the governments response is.

markwilding
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:52 am

How is it advantage anybody? This is not a game and has serious consequences.

Everybody has an opinion but what would you do taking into account the rule of law and article 2 and 155 of the Spanish constitution ?

Taking over the Catalan administration might achieve what I believe is Carles Puigdemont tactic to try to bring more Catalan over to supporting independence or do nothing and wait for the inevitable economic disaster. The Spanish government would also have to bear in mind that giving into this type of illegal political pressure and upheaval might encourage other communities to try the same tactic.

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Re: catalan

Postby El Cid » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:55 am

You can read the statement in English here

https://twitter.com/govern/status/91986 ... 14878.html

Sid

wembason420
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Re: catalan

Postby wembason420 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:11 am

From An anonymous online commentator. It pretty much sums it up for me. All about the money for the very few, ignoring the well being of the mass populous.

Catalonia and with it Spain is facing a rebellion of the most venal and caitiff oligarchy, an insurrection of the feudal Lords and rapacious families that have created and fabricated a racist state inside the state with the help and connivance of the rest of the Spanish oligarchy. The calls for democracy and socialism from the ideological representatives of this conservative elite, can only ring hollow and ridiculous in the face of the most brazen and disgraceful plundering and blackmailing scandals in the history of Spain and even the world. Like they did in the past, in the 1930’s in particular, the nationalist oligarchy of Spain is dragging the whole country to a Civil War for seflfish purposes, a Civil War in which they were the first to divide the forces of democracy and the first to abandon the fight and surrender to Franco. The last shameful days of faintheartedness and pusillanimity, in which the infamous and long awaited ‘Declaration of Independence’ was dodged, demonstrates that we are not facing a romantic revolution and a struggle for freedom, democracy and justice of a determined, exploited and brutalised people, but the fearful and dastardly behaviour of an elite that can only obtain its subversive aims through the conspiratorial arts of treason, intrigue and sedition.

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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:51 am

Good post wembason420
Catalonia and with it Spain is facing a rebellion of the most venal and caitiff oligarchy, an insurrection of the feudal Lords and rapacious families that have created and fabricated a racist state inside the state with the help and connivance of the rest of the Spanish oligarchy.


That is one of the reasons why I am against these nationalist movements in Spain. Their origin is racist and the arguments are often based on feudal rights given by past kings and in my opinion should not be relevant in a modern democracy.

BENIDORM wrote:I think that the were actually trying to keep a 'low profile' and most of the 'heavy handed' police presence would have been / is National Police assisted by Guardia Civil riot units.....Not the 'regular' Guardia Civil.....

Regards,
Gordon.

If the 'Mossos' are representative of the political split in Catalonia, It must be very difficult for them. They are dammed if they support independence and dammed if they don't.

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Re: catalan

Postby olive » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:05 pm

I for one do not see it as a game. I suspect the consequences, if this struggle is handled badly, are lost on most people.

Yes rule of law and might backed up by the EU will win. Fragmentation cannot be allowed when the goal is greater integration.

I for one expected a clear outcome today by ten a.m. . The response fudged the issue and has put the ball back in Rajoy's court. Hence the reference to advantage.

as an aside,interesting article in Elpais today , in English, https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/15/in ... 34208.html

wembason - good quote but doesn't that sum up what is going on all around the world even in so called democratic countries? The people are just incidental. Always has been and always will be. Look at the Soviet Union. Hundred years ago they had a revolution to get rid of the czar and now they have one back.
never come across caitiff before. Great word. a contemptible or cowardly person. "a caitiff knight"

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:34 pm

Benidorm/Enrique
Thanks for replies and clarity in relation to police as it makes things clearer.

For me "Puigdemont" will likely have to resign as either way his position will not be tenable, he is caught up in the middle of a mess that he was the principal player in suggesting independence.
We could have any wealthy economic region in Europe saying were doing well so we will go it alone and leave the "peasants" to fend for themselves and we will buy their cheap food.
From the beginning it was a crazy idea and the people who made it happen will likely have to go, well that's what i think.
Over the years i never fallowed it as i thought it would not happen, i mean the referendum....

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:55 pm

wollie wrote:Over the years i never fallowed it as i thought it would not happen, i mean the referendum....


And now there will be a legal referendum - by a different name. Both Rajoy and Sanchez accept Article 155 must lead to elections.

Rajoy of course doesn't have to fight a referendum, but he has to let both sides fight and debate an election.

Maybe the independistas losing that election is the ideal solution for Rajoy and the EU. But will they?

Interesting times.
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markwilding
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Re: catalan

Postby markwilding » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:51 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by referendum. Invoking article 55 should lead to Catalan elections. We must hope that turnout is extremely high so that If nothing else, we will have a better picture of the overall public opinion there.

In The Basque Country there was the Ibarretxe Plan, which was rejected by the then PSOE government as being unconstitutional. Although many people here supported it, it pushed more moderate voters away from voting Nationalist parties in the following elections and resulted in a non-Nationalist lehendakari (Leader) for the first time since democracy.

The EU also refused to become involved in that dispute as they said it was an internal problem.

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:23 pm

markwilding wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by referendum. Invoking article 155 should lead to Catalan elections. We must hope that turnout is extremely high so that If nothing else, we will have a better picture of the overall public opinion there.


I'd imagine they'd be a high turnout as long as there is security - and as 'JxSi' have largely been pacifist I see no reason to expect otherwise. As you say let's hope so.

What I mean by referendum is that the candidates for 'JxSi' will be easily identified, along with other pro-indy candidates, and the votes counted up.

I don't imagine any one will campaign on any other topic. So, as you say a better picture of public opinion. But if the result is large in-favour of Indy candidates then it will be read as a non-binding referendum by many; as opposed to the recent illegal referendum.

markwilding wrote:In The Basque Country there was the Ibarretxe Plan, which was rejected by the then PSOE government as being unconstitutional. Although many people here supported it, it pushed more moderate voters away from voting Nationalist parties in the following elections and resulted in a non-Nationalist lehendakari (Leader) for the first time since democracy.


Very interesting. I guess we wait and see how the players react in this case, and how that impacts voting. What effect would banning Puigdemont from public office have for example?
El raton de watford

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Re: catalan

Postby wollie » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:47 pm

I do not think he "Puigdemont" will be banned from office but when is done and dusted his credibility be in tatters if he pulls back from the result of the illegal referendum he won.
If he does not pull back he may end up being arrested but i think this is the least preferred option which is why the stall until Thursday.
Either way there be an election in Catalonia and after all that is happened there likely be a reality check in the general Catalan region.
One of the reasons being is its clear that Catalan region likely not be economicaly viable on its own after several companies said they would leave.
The EU were right not to get involved. Its a big mess and i cannot understand why the powers that be did not see this coming as it was inevitable.

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Re: catalan

Postby katy » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:02 pm

I think he will be banned from office and also face possible criminal proceedings as has happened to others before.

I am amblivament to the proceedings, no view either way but it has not been good PR for Spain. Smashing into schools to destroy ballot papers, even videos of them pushing people downstairs. Lots of rising nationalism throughout Spain, flag waving falangists. Right wing riots in Valencia. Just read that a British journalist for El Pais has been sacked for being off message.

http://catalanmonitor.com/2017/10/12/el ... rial-line/

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Re: catalan

Postby flyeogh » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:23 pm

katy wrote:I am amblivament to the proceedings, no view either way but it has not been good PR for Spain. Smashing into schools to destroy ballot papers, even videos of them pushing people downstairs. Lots of rising nationalism throughout Spain, flag waving falangists. Right wing riots in Valencia. Just read that a British journalist for El Pais has been sacked for being off message.

http://catalanmonitor.com/2017/10/12/el ... rial-line/


Thanks for that Katy. I hadn't seen it but it comes as no great surprise.

As you say the damage to Spain is and will be severe. All very sad.
El raton de watford


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