Parcel of land

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ashtondav
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Parcel of land

Postby ashtondav » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:07 pm

Hi

A parcel of land has just got ne on sale next to our property Frigiliana torrox road. About 11,000 sqm with a permit to build a 40sqm "apero" - it has electric and water supply. I also assume you could plant several hundred fruit trees. I've not enquired about price yet, but does anyone have an idea about the value of the plot - I'm assuming a 40sqm tool shed/dwelling has very little value.

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Flexo
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Re: Parcel of land

Postby Flexo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:25 pm

If it is not urbanizable it is not worth more than what you can make from a few hundred trees (which is not much).

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby ajtg1952 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:10 pm

I've just bought my neighbours land. Several hundred Olive trees, which he will continue to look after. 20,000 sq.m for 8,000 Euros, I think I got a good deal!

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby ashtondav » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:03 pm

Well I've just asked and the asking price is €120,000, but open to "offers". Any ideas as to how to find out what a realistic price would be, for example this looks like a similar dwelling permit, on land half the size.

https://www.thinkspain.com/properties-i ... ty/3481870

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby El Cid » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:28 pm

None of those plots have a licence to build a house - just a tool shed. In Andalucia it is now virtually impossible to get permission to build a proper house in the campo. In the past the 40m2 shed would magically turn out to be a 5 bed villa! Years ago you (if you were Spanish and had friends in the town hall) might get away with it. It's very different now. These "sheds" cannot have luxuries like inside partition walls and you will never get a habitation licence. Without that you will never get a domestic electricity supply or mains water and worse still you will not be allowed to live in it.

A close English neighbour was conned into buying such a plot some years ago for a holiday home. Shortly after completion of a nice little house with pool she arrived home to find it covered in blue and white police tape with the word "precintado" on the tape which effectively sealed it. Shortly after, she received a demolition order. The good news is that the police never came back and there has been no sign of a big bulldozer since (that's about 15) years). The bad news is that it would be almost impossible to sell it for even a quarter of what it cost to build.

That said, it still goes on but all the buyers will be Spanish and they have no intention of ever selling it - usually just passing it down through the family. Often they are never officially their habitual residence as they usually have a house in the town/village and just use the campo house occasionally. Also a Spaniard in the campo will rarely denounce a neighbour who is building but it's often very different if its a foreigner!

Sid

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby olive » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:30 pm

ajtg1952 wrote:I've just bought my neighbours land. Several hundred Olive trees, which he will continue to look after. 20,000 sq.m for 8,000 Euros, I think I got a good deal!


Yes , I agree. They aren't making much new land. Might be an idea to formailise your neighbour looking after the trees. A usual arrangement is it costs you nothing and you get 25% or thereabouts of the take. If the take is very small it is better to have the goodwill!

I would run a mile from the plot for 120k euros.

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby Wicksey » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:53 pm

The aperos around our valley continue to grow just like the old days and a house we were dissuaded to buy many years back has eventually been sold and the builders have been working there flat out for months now. There seem to be some areas that just carry on with the old ways of building an apero and it slowly grows into a house over the years. As you say Sid, they will prbably never want to sell it and keep it in the family so they don't worry about the legalities.

ajtg you got a bargain there. The previous owners of our house were charged 6000€ by the neighbour just to swop boundaries as he had retained part of the land that came with our house. Any house that is for sale with a larger than usual plot of 2,500m2 seems to charge a huge premium for the land. There's plenty of rural plots for sale if you look on Kyero but all very expensive
https://www.kyero.com/en/property/48520 ... ale-torrox

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby Manchesteral » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:05 pm

ashtondav wrote:Well I've just asked and the asking price is €120,000, but open to "offers". Any ideas as to how to find out what a realistic price would be, for example this looks like a similar dwelling permit, on land half the size.

https://www.thinkspain.com/properties-i ... ty/3481870


No Idea of land prices but as Sid has said it's extremely doubtful you would ever get permission to build anything other than a basic shed and at €120.000 for just over a hectare of land I think they're just looking for a sucker !!

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Flexo
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Re: Parcel of land

Postby Flexo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:38 pm

It is not at all impossible to get permission to build a residential house on a rustica, if you read the law you see that you are often explicitly allowed to do so if you keep the local restrictions which often say maximum small % footprint of the plot and so forth but you cannot assume you will get permission because they will often deny you in order for them to demand a bribe or so. I am confident I will be allowed to build a residential house on my farm if I would want to because I know a similar plot in the area that recently got it and I know enough people in the community that I think the mayor give in.

However, 1% of 1 hectare is like 10x10m, bigger than 40m2 but not enough for a normal house + garage if you are limited to one or two floors.

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby El Cid » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:03 pm

The only way you will get permission in Andalucia is if you have a productive piece of land and are registered as a farmer. That rules out 99% of most aspiring expats.

We got permission in 2002 to build on 8000 m2 at a rate of 0.15% of the area, in other words about 115m2. The minimum plot since 2002 is now 30000m2 and only if you qualify as a farmer. To my knowledge, in this area, there has only been one house built that met the rules and even then, only an appeal to the Junta overrode the town halls refusal to grant a licence.

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby olive » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:53 pm

I went with a Spanish farming neighbour to the Ayuntamiento. He wanted to build a small brick shed adjacent to some ruins on one pf his many parcels of land. Big enough to house a small caterpillar tractor and a spraying rig. The answer was an emphatic no. The same Ayo is turning a blind eye to the staggering number of solar panels beng erected to power wells with no permissions. At the end pf the day It makessense to persuade or dissuade campo dwellers..

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby Flexo » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:46 am

One of the restrictions against stone and brick buildings is that they are more expensive to demolish. If you want to build a shed it might be much better to propose a steel frame building.

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby ashtondav » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:32 pm

El Cid wrote:The only way you will get permission in Andalucia is if you have a productive piece of land and are registered as a farmer. That rules out 99% of most aspiring expats.

We got permission in 2002 to build on 8000 m2 at a rate of 0.15% of the area, in other words about 115m2. The minimum plot since 2002 is now 30000m2 and only if you qualify as a farmer. To my knowledge, in this area, there has only been one house built that met the rules and even then, only an appeal to the Junta overrode the town halls refusal to grant a licence.



Ok, so (at the right price) I need to find a farmer to buy and build? Then I buy off him? I need to read up on the laws on this. Any links?

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Flexo
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Re: Parcel of land

Postby Flexo » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:18 pm

ashtondav wrote:Ok, so (at the right price) I need to find a farmer to buy and build? Then I buy off him? I need to read up on the laws on this. Any links?


No you will most likely need to become a farmer (which is not a big deal, not like you need to know anything or have a title), have a commercial production on the property and so forth. To do this in order to solve these problems you need I would say at least 3 hectares.

ashtondav
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Re: Parcel of land

Postby ashtondav » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:12 am

Hang on, this parcel is on a road that has houses all the way down. So it's probably "urban" not "rural".

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby Pamela1 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:14 am

Seems an awful lot of land if its urban for permission to have just an apero of 40sq meters..Maybe it is just land that is classed as farming land and cant be used for housing.. Im just wild guessing and im also taking a guess at a price of 60,000 euros based on what ive seen sold near our property but ive added a bit more on with it being where it is...
We once looked at a small property which was just a few hundred yds ouutside a village, it was on the roadside and had land with it...The vendor wanted 120.000 euros and i beleive it went for 55.000 euros in the end..

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby El Cid » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:55 am

If it was urban, a plot that size could be worth millions!

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Re: Parcel of land

Postby TorreDelAguila » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:58 pm

Rather than guess on the classification of a parcel of land, look at the local on-line Catastro map, which details the land and any buildings already on it, and their classification, right down to dwelling area/function.
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Re: Parcel of land

Postby olive » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:09 am

Flexo wrote:
ashtondav wrote:Ok, so (at the right price) I need to find a farmer to buy and build? Then I buy off him? I need to read up on the laws on this. Any links?


No you will most likely need to become a farmer (which is not a big deal, not like you need to know anything or have a title), have a commercial production on the property and so forth. To do this in order to solve these problems you need I would say at least 3 hectares.


ha ha that is priceless. I think tomorrow that I will give up farming and become a merchant banker. Not like you need to know anything. I suspect a title might actually help though.

PS I am giving free courses (last 10 to 12 minutes) on how to become a farmer. It covers the basics like there is an olive tree, this is a tractor, here is a bucket, that is a capon and this is a weed.

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Flexo
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Re: Parcel of land

Postby Flexo » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:35 pm

olive wrote:ha ha that is priceless. I think tomorrow that I will give up farming and become a merchant banker. Not like you need to know anything. I suspect a title might actually help though.


What is priceless is your sarcasm. I was simply telling ashtondav how to proceed in order to be allowed to construct a residential building on the property. And yes I am a farmer and no you don't need to have a title to run a farm, you can hire a consultant that plants the trees and takes care of them. You don't even need a tractor.


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