Buying a rural property - are any legal??

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Devils Advocate
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Devils Advocate » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:12 pm

I agree with all that, and you make a lot of sense. However the DAFO becomes worthless should the new buyer build a new step, tile a terrace or do any further works without asking God. If the helicopter spots a change it's new DAFO time.
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby dxf » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:20 pm

Hola

Thank you for that - much appreciated. If you have an AFO you can now apply for a licence of Obra to change your house. Whilst currently it only applies to maintenance, there are plans afoot to allow you to do anything up to but not including rebuilding the house. Therefore you should never need another AFO.

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Devils Advocate » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:32 pm

We are out of it now thankfully so I'm done with worrying about unfathomable and retrospective laws coming in. Most people I knew over there were decent folk who bought houses of all ages in totally good and honest faith. Most of them have been stung when sales time comes around. We touched lucky with our sale and drew more than we ever expected but the Dafo and retention just leave a bitter taste. You buy a legal house, pay leeches money to ensure it's a legal house, then pay the same leeches money again when you sell .......just to confirm it's a legal house :mrgreen:
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Beachcomber » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:51 am

DA, to answer your questions:

This was done a long time ago, prior to the advent of the Junta de Andalucía and its now deposed Messiah so we cannot blame them or him this time.

This has not stopped the Town Hall taking money up front for the issue of an AFO. It has now passed an edict to say that no AFOs will be issued in the municipality and that all the money will be repaid (after they have been holding on to it for two or three years). Where the money will come from is anybody's guess because this will effectively kill residential tourism in the municipality and obviously it will only be the money paid to the Town Hall not the fees and kick-backs paid to the architects and the Mr Ten-Percenters.

There is no average price for an AFO. What may cost a few hundred euros in one municipality can cost several thousand in an adjoining one. Similarly, the time scale is nothing more than another lucky dip.

As we all know, the whole rural situation is a total mess. They are trying to resolve years of lackadaisical attitude and sparse enforcement of planning laws with a knee-jerk reaction of a blunt, very expensive, instrument.

As I have said before and to quote a front page headline from a major UK newspaper in the 1980s:

"DO NOT BUY A PROPERTY IN SPAIN UNLESS YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE ALL OF THE MONEY."

Nothing has changed since then and, if anything, it has all got far worse.

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Wicksey » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:31 am

Devils Advocate wrote:You buy a legal house, pay leeches money to ensure it's a legal house, then pay the same leeches money again when you sell .......just to confirm it's a legal house :mrgreen:
That's what I don't understand. I know there's campo houses where the legality is questionable, but we are on the catastral and have legal electricity connection and are the third owners of this place so it has gone through the legal process 3 times. It does all seem to be a money-making scheme.

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Devils Advocate » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:56 pm

Thanks Beachy for the answer, although I am trying to decipher it.

Not your reply but the contents in it referring to this "pay back" idea. More Spanish Logic haha.

So who pays this money back, and how much of it do you reckon?

You say in all honesty and innocence prices vary from area to area, yet we had quotes from firms not 3 miles from each other in exactly the same area of 8k, and finally the 4k which we negotiated with another firm..........so where would that extra 4k be now if we'd plumped for the first outlandish and incomprehensible quote? I think not in the town hall coffers.

We've asked for a breakdown of this 4k DAFO of which lawyers fee's are included, as of we have not had a reply.

So in essence how much do the Townhalls have to pay back? How much of it is cash in the back pockets of the lawyers and others?

Then when it is paid back, is the DAFO null and void?, what do the people who thought they were getting a DAFO as part of the deal do? Where do they stand then and what is the impact on the property?

I am certain like us they will have had it written in the sales contract.

A true can of worms.
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Beachcomber » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:21 pm

The money paid to the Town Hall for the AFO will be paid back in full (but probably without any interest) but it is very unlikely that the architect, lawyer etc will refund their own fees. I suppose you could try sending the boys round.

When I referred to the price of an AFO I meant the fee paid to the Town Hall. There are set prices per square meter and this is what varies from municipality to municipality and accounts for the huge variation in the price. The fee paid to the architect and lawyer is open to negotiation. The fee paid to the Town Hall is not. This is why your quotes varied. The Town Hall fee would have been the same regardless of the quotes you got for the whole job. The difference in the case of the higher quote would have gone into Mr Ten-Percenter's pocket.

If the AFO is declined then there is no AFO to be rendered null and void because it never existed. The status of the property remains as it was before.

I don't think any of this applies in your case because, from what you have said, your property complied with all of the requirements for the issue of an AFO.

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Devils Advocate » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:44 pm

Thanks Beachy, I'll report back when I get a breakdown of this bill, whenever that may be. I'd love to know what the town hall fee is.

No at present hopefully as you say this doesn't apply in our case, but we are at an early stage with the DAFO and have no real idea how long it will take to complete. I'm guessing if it is happening in the area you reference to it could also be applied in our East of Malaga region.

Hence my other point, the obtaining of the DAFO is in the sales contract of the house we sold. I'm certain the same will apply to others in this other region you mention. I'd be mighty miffed if it wasn't fulfilled and would seek some come back as a buyer.

5k retention for us too to obtain it.......so if it were not obtained then that's us up the creek, again I'm certain there will be others in the area affected by the same position as we were cornered in to.
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Beachcomber » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:06 pm

If the land upon which your property was built was not protected at the time it was built and is more than six years old there should be no obstacle to obtaining to AFO even if it has subsequently been designated as protected land.

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Devils Advocate » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:10 pm

Ah I see, that is the case with us then.

Thanks for that.
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby El Cid » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:22 pm

Is there any suggestion that your house was in protected or planned protected land? I doubt it.

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Devils Advocate » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:35 pm

No Sid, I can see my post is a bit unclear there. As far as we were concerned when we bought the land was not protected.

However we can only go by what we are told at the time, OH cringes at some of the stuff in the legal documents.

What surprised me about the DAFO is that it's reason in our case was stated is because we'd replaced a wood/cane portion of terrace roof with concrete/rustic roof tiles to match the rest and not asked permission, this was spotted on the aerial photography.

First inkling we got that DAFO's were needed in such a case......in fact we're still not sure if we've been misled.
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Beachcomber » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:42 pm

I am sure you realise this but I assume you are aware that the retention made in respect of the AFO is quite different to the 3% retention for your Capital Gains Tax declaration.

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Devils Advocate » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:45 am

Yes, quite different as you say but both applied with exactly the same over the top manner.

DAFO retention is basically us paying a ransom demand to cover our lawyers undertaking, such is the lack of trust amongst thieves.

CG retention, just keep keep 3% of the sale price back from them and let them pay to get it back, even though actual gain or loss is clearly on show at the Notary office.
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby gerrynag » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:49 pm

The retention money is to protect the new owners from any additional costs resulting from the DAFO.

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Genie » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:14 am

Hi, I am new to this forum and joined it because I am thinking of buying in the area - or at least I was thinking of buying until I read all this! Now I think I will just stick with Tenerife, its a lot safer - apart from the constant calimas!

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Pamela1 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:23 pm

Genie, i can understand your concern and your reluctancy to buy...We bought our property a few months before i joined the forum, like you i read so much off putting info and i did feel that perhaps i would have hesitated about buying our property had i visited the forum first.Having said that what's done is done and we have enjoyed the past 7 yrs going to the property, not only that having the house has enabled our children and their children to enjoy several breaks away which otherwise would not have been possible and just being able to spend time away all together has been great..
Perhaps one day we may be faced with the same problems as those who have kindly bothered to jot down their own experiences and i often wonder what next! Who knows, laws might change either for the worst or hopefully for the better..Whatever happens we will have to cross that bridge when and if it comes to it but for now im not going to spend my time worrying about it...

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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby gerryh » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:44 pm

Also it is worth noting that only the horror stories about people buying illegal properties get reported.
Stories about people buying legal properties rarely get reported.
I suspect, hope, that there are more legal properties bought than illegal ones.
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby Devils Advocate » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:51 pm

You'll not find out what skeletons are in the cupboard until you come to sell. Never be smug. That applies to old properties as well as recent builds. Beware.
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Re: Buying a rural property - are any legal??

Postby dxf » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:01 pm

Hola

Things have moved on and there is a new decree 3 / 2019 which helps a lot of illegal properties. There is political will to "get things sorted" as far as illegal properties go. That is not to say everything is coming up smelling of roses, but things are starting to move

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