Taking the stress out of Spanish property ownership

[steve_w]

My partner and I have owned a property on the Costa del Sol for almost 15 years. We’re still resident in the UK, and visit the property as often as we can, but not as often as we'd like to.

We haven’t had a fiscal representative in Spain for several years now. Originally, we gave power of attorney to the lawyer who handled the property purchase for us. Unfortunately, we found out later that she had made a serious error concerning the payment of property transfer tax (ITP), which cost us thousands of Euros to rectify.

Perhaps not surprisingly, this experience destroyed our trust in 'local' representation, and we’ve tried to look after our own affairs ever since. However, that hasn’t proved to be easy. For example, when we arrive at the property, we find that we've missed a recorded delivery letter from the Junta de Andalucía. We then have to try to find out what it was about.

We’ve heard about digital certificates or something called Cl@ve, which may allow us to interact remotely with the various national and local government bodies in Spain via the internet. We’re not sure, though, how this could work for us.

In a nutshell, we’d be really grateful for any tips and advice that other forum members could give us on how to enjoy stress free property ownership in Spain as non-residents.

[Wicksey]

The most important thing is to have direct debits set up for every conceivable bill (utilities, IBI, insurance, community charges if applicable) and then bank online so you can see what's happening. Who does your non-residents tax return each year? This is something else you can do yourself, I think there are instructions on here and I have done it years ago online and it was quite simple.

Most of our problems when we were non residents were due to the fact we had a campo house which was not legal, so if you have an urban property with no such issues, I would hope that it would be simpler to manage from afar. I can well remember spending all of our holidays here sorting stuff out, so have sympathy for you!

[steve_w]

Thanks for the quick reply, Wicksey, and the good advice.

We already have direct debits set up for all the payments that we know about (water, electricity, IBI, rubbish, community charge, etc).

I do our non-resident tax returns each year online. As you say, that's pretty easy.

I guess that the problem is the things that we don't know about. A few years ago, the Junta introduced a regional rubbish recycling tax (since incorporated into the IBI, I believe). We only found out about it when we got a recorded delivery letter demanding back payments plus penalties.

We didn't know about our lawyer's error with the ITP until we discovered that the Junta was about to embargo our bank account and seize the property. It turned out that the lawyer had been binning their letters for five years without telling us. In that time, we'd incurred an additional 50% charge in interest and penalties.

So, I'm wondering if, somehow, we can check online to see whether we have any outstanding demands from the various authorities or, even better, whether we can ask them to contact us electronically rather than by letter.

Is any of this possible, do you know?

[Devils Advocate]

Hi Steve, I associated with your post very much. We sold up in August after having done 18 years as you have and understand exactly where you are coming from.

We tried to do everything correctly but with the house being a holiday home for a few weeks a year as soon as we got back to the UK we put it out of our minds.....then had the grief of sorting things out once more on our next trip. It seemed never ending at times. Standing orders are a must and you do that, it annoyed me that we stopped getting physical electric and water bills posted to our house in the UK, also we had great difficulty with Unicajas online banking system, we'd get new pin codes on each visit but they stopped working again as soon as we got home....it left us blind really. We hated leaving too much in the Spanish bank, yet if you ever ran short and a standing order was stopped that caused serious headaches in reinstating it.

In fact the awkwardness of it all was a reason albeit only a small one for selling up.

Yes, we also found goalposts changed too re. what we pay and who to, we saw standing orders stop for no reason and a host of baffling things you can't sort out from Lancashire.......every time we tried to sort things from home they'd say "You need to come in to the bank to do it", errrr right but I'm in Lancashire at the moment.

As for your worry of other possible bills/debts you may be innocently unaware of......I asked the same question on here many years ago and was advised of this site here Steve............ https://www.bopmalaga.es/anuncios/index.php?pag=alta

Heart in mouth time when you use it but yes, we were on it,owing money for things I never even knew we had to pay. Thankfully we sorted them or they may have reared their heads when we sold up....no doubt with massive penalties.

I forget how we used it now but it does work.

All the best
Kenny

[Beachcomber]

As a non-resident you can obtain a digital certificate but probably not a Cl@ve.

You would be able to use this to check on your status with the tax office and it would make the submission of non-resident tax payments easier. You can also use it with some Town Hall web sites and if you are in a municipality that subscribes to the Patronato in Málaga you can check all payments made for IBI and basura etc.

[Enrique]

Hi,

"As a non-resident you can obtain a digital certificate but probably not a Cl@ve."...........need a Spanish SIM , ideal Dual SIM phone as well.

Use Digital Signature to Submit and Pay Form 210 Non-Resident Tax, and check it's Registered on AEAT Site.

[El Cid]

Some cynics would say that the only way to avoid the stress of Spanish property ownership is never to buy one in the first place!

Sid

[Devils Advocate]

Very similar to what people say about boat ownership too Sid isn't it? As the old saying goes.....What's the 2 happiest times?

We all know though that if you want to do it then just do it.....life is too short and full of people saying "I should have".

[El Cid]

DA I know exactly what you mean about boat ownership! Yes, property ownership Is much the same but it is worth the initial pain once you get used to the system.

Some good advice has already been posted and probably more to come, but the best advice I can add is, if in doubt, ask on this forum. Most of us have, between us, experienced every possible example of the problems that can crop up.

Sid

[Devils Advocate]

Some good advice has already been posted and probably more to come, but the best advice I can add is, if in doubt, ask on this forum. Most of us have, between us, experienced every possible example of the problems that can crop up.

Sid

Agree with the last sentence Sid 100%.

We've been let down by "experts" time and again, the advice I've received from this forum has come from people who've actually been there and done it.....with no axe to grind and nothing to sell you. The advice I have had on here this year alone has been priceless, yet was free.

[steve_w]

Thanks everyone for the further replies.

Kenny, it's nice to know that I'm not alone in my frustration and anxiety. I do, with trepidation, check the boletines from time to time. I'd like to try to head things off before they get that far, though. Oh, the things that they don't tell you about on 'A Place in the Sun', eh?

Beachcomber and Enrique, we're going to the ayuntamiento shortly to get electronic certificates, after we've been to the local Junta office to find out what the latest recorded delivery letter was about. Great way to spend a holiday.

Sid, I don't think that I'll ever get used to system, but it's good that I can learn from people like yourself who've already got the tee-shirt. Thanks again.

[Beachcomber]

Are you aware of the procedure for obtaining digital certificates? You don't get them from the Town Hall you just have to go there with the already obtained number to confirm your identity.

[Enrique]

Hi steve_w,
I recently obtained a Digital Signature.....see my Post 3-Oct in this Thread.........

http://andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... re#p394620

[steve_w]

Ah, okay, sorry. I wasn't aware of the process for obtaining an electronic certificate.

Unfortunately, I don't have a PC with me in Spain at the moment, only an Android tablet.

It seems from the sede.fnmt.gob.es website that the process for obtaining a certificate on an Android device is still in closed beta testing, so I suppose that I'll have to wait until my next visit here.

[Beachcomber]

It should be possible from a tablet but I have never tried it. Do you not know anyone with a PC. It is most important that the initial application and the subsequent download of the certificate is done on the same device and same browser but if you did use someone else's PC to do it you would need to ensure that the certificate was deleted from it once you had made the copy.

[steve_w]

It would probably be possible to use a Win10 tablet, but I only have an Android one with me at the moment.

It looks as if you need to download an app to use a digital certificate on an Android device, but that the app is still in closed beta testing by a group of selected users.

I could be wrong about that, though.

I think that I'll wait until my next visit and bring a Win10 laptop. That's probably going to be the simplest solution.

Thanks again for your advice.

[steve_w]

Back to the trials and tribulations of Spanish property ownership ...

A few weeks ago, the Junta de Andalucía in Seville sent a recorded delivery letter to our property in Spain. By the time that we arrived here, the letter had already been returned to the sender.

So, bright and early this morning, I trekked down to the nearest Junta offices to try to find out what the letter was about.

The funcionario with whom I spoke could tell me nothing. He simply said that there are many different departments of the Junta in Seville, and that it wasn't possible for him to find out which one had sent the letter.

The local Correos office was no more helpful. The letter had come from, and been returned to, the Junta de Andalucía in Seville. That's all there was to it.

A telephone call to the Junta's information line number in Seville bore no fruit either. They couldn't trace the letter using either the Correos reference number from the aviso de llegada or my personal details.

Given our previous experience with the Junta concerning ITP (mentioned above), I don't feel at all comfortable leaving the matter there.

If the Junta sends the letter again, the chances of us being here when it arrives are pretty slim.

Okay, so we could appoint a fiscal representative and ask the Junta to send any future correspondence to them, but again our previous experience of that arrangement has not been good (see above).

Is there another way out of this predicament? How can a regional government organization send someone a recorded delivery letter, but not be able trace it?