Language skills required for living in Andalucia?

[jenna m]

My main question is how do you actually get the spanish to LISTEN to you and TRY to understand what you are saying. Patience is not one of their virtues.

[frank]

Learning Spanish 'out in the sticks' is a little like learning Martian sometimes.

Words that are known throughout the rest of Spain as something are pronounced COMPLETELY differently in certain areas making it hard for Spaniards from other regions to understand sometimes.

Agree, that's pretty much what I have said here before. Andalucia, especially inland, is one of the worst places to learn Spanish. I went to a language school in Andalucia, and three teachers I had came form Cádiz,Córdoba and Málaga. In the classes they all spoke in a neutral sort of central Spain accent, but if you met them out of the school environment, and they reverted to their natural accent, it was very difficult to follow what they were saying. In contrast, I have recently started classes with a Catalan girl, and I was a bit apprehensive about understanding her accent, but it is so easy to understand. I have generally found, most of the rest of Spain, is easy to understand, compared with Andalucia. Obviously, if you are living there, you'll probably pick up the local accent and be easily understood. However, it won't do you any favours in the rest of Spain!


Still, me with my Michel Thomas 8 hour course, I will soon have the local inhabitants speaking Spanish proper like!!

[Valencia_Paul]

My main question is how do you actually get the spanish to LISTEN to you and TRY to understand what you are saying. Patience is not one of their virtues.

I find the opposite - The Spanish seem to understand me quite well but I often don't understand the reply!

[Beachcomber]

When I was having my house built the actual builders of the house were from a small village in the Guadalhorce Valley and the men building the pool were from a tiny hamlet just outside of Almería. (There was no-one in Málaga who knew how to build a pool properly then, I'm not even sure if there is now!)

They had great difficulty understanding one another and on several occasions, if not actually translating, we had to explain to one side what the other was trying to say.

My wife who learnt her pure castellano at university in Salamanca has, over the years, developed an andaluz accent but she still has great difficulty communicating with our gardener whereas I with my guttural andaluz complete with grammatical errors picked up 'on the street' have no problem at all.

We recently had some builders from Valle de Abdalajís working on our house and, as a result, have added a whole load of new words and phrases to our vocabulary together with the way in which to say them which, if we use them in our own village, will be totally incomprehensible to the local population!

[frank]

When I was having my house built the actual builders of the house were from a small village in the Guadalhorce Valley and the men building the pool were from a tiny hamlet just outside of Almería. (There was no-one in Málaga who knew how to build a pool properly then, I'm not even sure if there is now!)

They had great difficulty understanding one another and on several occasions, if not actually translating, we had to explain to one side what the other was trying to say.

I can well believe it! This was the point I was trying to make in an earlier thread. But probably, if they both listened to the news, they could both understand it, yet had trouble understanding each other

My wife who learnt her pure castellano at university in Salamanca

Allegedly, the best place to learn Spanish, the purest accent.

has, over the years, developed an andaluz accent but she still has great difficulty communicating with our gardener whereas I with my guttural andaluz complete with grammatical errors picked up 'on the street' have no problem at all.

Can the gardener understand your wife ok? That's the point I made earlier, you are understood there, but they would probably struggle to understand you "up north"!

We recently had some builders from Valle de Abdalajís working on our house and, as a result, have added a whole load of new words and phrases to our vocabulary together with the way in which to say them which, if we use them in our own village, will be totally incomprehensible to the local population!

It's very interesting, isn't it? Friend of ours lives inland from Alumuñecar, and asked me if I knew the word "darro". I know the Rio Darro in Granada, but that´s it. I asked a guy from Málaga, and he had never heard of it. Seemingly, in her area, they use it for outlet pipe, or similar (waste pipe?), in plumbing. Guess it comes from the days when all waste was thrown in the river. But a few miles outside of her area, nobody seems to have heard of it.

o

[silver]

For those studying castellano this might be useful..
Consideramos como variedad dialectal el andaluz, dejando el murciano, el extremeño y el canario como dialectos-lenguas de tránsito por tener éstos otras influencias.

Los límites geográficos del dialecto andaluz coinciden prácticamente en su totalidad con los límites geográficos de la región de Andalucía, aunque rebasándola hacia el sur de Badajoz y el oeste de Murcia.



V.II Rasgos característicos

Los rasgos más destacables del dialecto andaluz son:

• Seseo o reducción de las sibilantes 'ç' y 'z' a una /s/ . Es propio del área occidental. Se considera hoy día correcto por el influjo socio-histórico de Sevilla.

• Ceceo como resultado de la reducción de 'ç' y 'z' a / ? / . Se da en zonas de Málaga, Granada y Almería. Es considerado pronunciación vulgar.

• Yeísmo es la confusión entre el fonema / l / y el fonema /y/ , fenómeno muy extendido en todo el castellano, salvo en algunas áreas laterales como Valencia y Baleares.

• Confusión entre 'l' y 'r' : '*sordado', por 'soldado','*arma' por 'alma' y que coincide con un vulgarismo.

• Aspiración o casi desaparición de s en posición final o implosiva de sílaba. Esto obliga a abrir la vocal anterior para distinguir el singular del plural : 'niño' (singular) : 'niñoh' (plural).

• Aspiración de h inicial , 'juerga' por 'huelga' y pérdida de fonemas sonoros, 'soleares' por 'soledades'.

• Abundantes arcaísmos en el vocabulario : 'ansias' por 'náuseas',; gran influjo del gitano: 'gachí', 'parné', y aún un mayor influjo del árabe, 'juro' (=cierto), 'matjal' (medida agraria).

[katy]

In answer to Kevins questions, is not speaking the language a barrier to integration? Yes of course although some people think they are integrated if they stumble over a few words with their vecinos, a few drinks and nods and they think they are in! To participate fully in Spanish life mistakes aren't important you need to have the skill to follow about four different conversations at the same time. A good grasp of the political scene is essential and what is happening in the various soaps on TV.

Language skills are not high among the Brits, I only know about 2 people who would be considered fluent, exception being the ones who have intermarried. A spanish teacher I know tells me that 90% of her class are German, only about 5% are Brits.

Its possible to get by without speaking Spanish, even the hospital has an english speaker to ring patients for an appointment. I have learnt not to let people know I speak spanish unless I have to, useful for evesdropping and stops people asking me to make their phone calls etc for them.

Someone who has lived here for 9 years asked me how to say merry xmas in spanish. Did also see recently on another forum "I have bought my place in spain because I am fed up of Brits and don't want to mix with them" Bought in Benelmadena!! and they probably don't speak the lingo either.

I think spanish lad will get along fine, he has the oral skills and unless he needs to write spanish for a job he is probably more fluent conversing than someone with a few certificates.

[frank]

To participate fully in Spanish life mistakes aren't important you need to have the skill to follow about four different conversations at the same time. A good grasp of the political scene is essential and what is happening in the various soaps on TV.

I'd fail miserably on all counts there!

Language skills are not high among the Brits, I only know about 2 people who would be considered fluent, exception being the ones who have intermarried. A spanish teacher I know tells me that 90% of her class are German, only about 5% are Brits.

At a language school they told me much the same, that that take up percentage by Brits, was the lowest by far. Even worse when you consider the number living there.

I think spanish lad will get along fine, he has the oral skills and unless he needs to write spanish for a job he is probably more fluent conversing than someone with a few certificates.

Agree, I said much the same. And I speak as one that does not have a single certificate to his name! Because I don't get the practice, my oral skills are definitely my weak suit!

[spanish_lad]

I think spanish lad will get along fine, he has the oral skills and unless he needs to write spanish for a job he is probably more fluent conversing than someone with a few certificates.

wow!!! katy, thanks!!! that was certainly un-expected!!! i didn´t realise this thread was even directed at me until then.. in fact, i dont even think it is but cheers anyways!!!

[Julie]

My main question is how do you actually get the Spanish to LISTEN to you and TRY to understand what you are saying. Patience is not one of their virtues.

I have to say I can not agree with the above statement, we live on the coast in a small village with 68 people in it, and nobody speaks English, all the villagers are great with us, my Spanish has improved no end due to the help I receive from them, I still struggle with the phrases that the older villagers sometime use, but they tell me they don't expect me to be able to understand all the phrases they use as some of them are extremely old.
The patience that show to me is great, and I also help the children with there English now, as the villagers feel that if their children are able to speak English it will go along way in helping them in the future.

[silver]

How do you actually get the Spanish to LISTEN to you and TRY to understand what you are saying

Use your hands... I think the hands work together with the mouth...cos.. they are a bit deaf (you must have noticed how they shout) Spanish always use their hands when talking...if you are not moving you hands..then maybe they think you are not saying anything.
P.S. You will have to learn the hand bit yourself..it´s not included in the Spanish classes.

[Alan-LaCala]

The more I am here (and it has only been 3 months), the more I realise how important it is to speak and understand the language.

I am just sorry that we cannot get into the spanish lessons at the town hall until next year. In the meantime, we listen and try and learn some new words each day.

A bit of spanglish.

Frank, wherever you got that, it was lovely, and helped in learning a few more words.

Alan

[Beachcomber]

Silver, if you are going to copy and paste you really ought to credit your source:

http://www.rinconcastellano.com/lenguas/iv_andaluz.html

[silver]

Beachcomber..what does it matter..those who want to know more they can ask for a PM..I am never too sure what webs can be advertised on here.
Everyone picks up info from all sorts of places.... webs, encyclopedias, books, papers school, friends, family... if it on line, copy and paste is just easier than typing. Many ask questions that can easy be found on line..if you know the language or where to look. Why do some find it so strange to copy and paste Its one of Internets greatest facilities...its easy...whats the problem

[silver]

Silver, if you are going to copy and paste you really ought to credit your source

Beachcomber..if in this topic 2 people have copy/pasted (me once, frank once)..why did you direct your post only to me????

[Beachcomber]

There is no problem. I just think that if you are going to use someone else's intellectual property on a forum it is polite (and possibly a legal requirement) to cite its source.

You will see that I mentioned Frank's contribution earlier. However, the author of that poem is unknown so it is impossible to credit him/her.

I'm sorry if I have upset you. I don't want to get into an argument about this. It's just what I think.

[spanish_lad]

My main question is how do you actually get the Spanish to LISTEN to you and TRY to understand what you are saying. Patience is not one of their virtues.

I have to say I can not agree with the above statement, we live on the coast in a small village with 68 people in it, and nobody speaks English, all the villagers are great with us, my Spanish has improved no end due to the help I receive from them, I still struggle with the phrases that the older villagers sometime use, but they tell me they don't expect me to be able to understand all the phrases they use as some of them are extremely old.
The patience that show to me is great, and I also help the children with there English now, as the villagers feel that if their children are able to speak English it will go along way in helping them in the future.

a town, on the coast with 68 people in it?? where the hell do u live ?

[silver]

No beachcomber I not upset..thick skin...

if you are going to use someone else's intellectual property on a forum it is polite (and possibly a legal requirement) to cite its source.

I was not awear of this....and as others have made comments about copy/paste, I was curios why this worried folk..

[nevada smith]

beachcomber -
tejano night before christmas
is the work of Lalo Guerrero (aka 'papa')
texas, 1956...

[nevada smith]

generally -
agree with beachcomber 100% -
'here's a poem i found on the net'... 'here's an article i read in the following newspaper, magazine, book... etc... date and issue wouldn't hurt either... 'here's something i discussed with my neighbor who is a PhD in nuclear cosmetics...'
you know - the panacea of journalism: who, what, where, when, how and sometimes y & w...