Rules for grey/black water disposal

[Conehead]

Hi all, I have been “lurking” on this forum for some time and found it very informative but now its time to try to get some help/advise and hopefully in the future offer assistance to others.
My main problem is to do with how to dispose of sewerage! Other problems will follow.
After doing the rounds etc last year we purchased a place near Colmenar and knew that the existing sewerage system had collapsed. I did ask before purchasing and was given advice but now that may have been wrong information, as usual. Now its about time to start moving from these cold climates, I was working in the middle east for a long time and could not make the move before, I must do something about the sewer to make the place habitable.
What existed was a pipe that came from the house, carrying both black and grey water, dropped down the side of the hill, through a concrete top into what I suspect was just a hole. The concrete was badly made, no rebar, and has broken, taking with it the pipe. The house is on one flat level which was cut into the hill-side and the “hole” is about 7 meters below the house level and to the side but virtually against the edge of the premises.
It is not a large house and only 2 people will normally be staying in it. I have looked around for information on cess pits, septic tanks, dry composting etc but due to the layout, possible bad access for emptying tanks and the latest rules I am not sure which way to proceed. This property is towards the top of a hill but not on a public road and there is no main sewer pipe available.
My question is what is the simplest sewer disposal system that is acceptable?

Any ideas/links would be appreciated.

[campo babe]

I have some friends who have a setic tank system imported from the UK which needs no emptying. They are so pleased with it that they have become Spanish contacts for import of the system. I will pm you their details, as I don't suppose I am allowed to advertise them on this forum.

[Valencia_Paul]

With a septic tank you need an outlet for the liquids. Normally this would be a series of pipes with holes in buried just below the soil forming the "leach field". If you have no outside space such a reasonably sized garden I'm not sure how this could work.

A dry composter might be illegal (and possible smelly and shocking for guests) in Spain - I'm not sure. How far away is the mains sewage?

[Conehead]

Hi,
Yes I know that a "leach field" would be required and I would probably have room for one running along the length of the property line but if there was a major flow of liquid it would start to run down the hill and outside of the property line. Hence the problem with liquids.

As we are situated "down" a non made-up road by about 1/2km I do not think there is any way I can get a connection to a sewer system.

[Valencia_Paul]

Hi Conehead,

I saw a program on the TV whereby a presenter (Amanda Lamb I think) was troubleshooting Brits in Spain with various problems.
One such couple had sewage problems - it looked like they just had a pozo negro that was overflowing.

As I recall, the solution involved a normal septic tank but instead of a leach field the outlet went straight into a series of 3 fairly compact reed beds made of Spanish bricks rendered with cement inside and out.

It may be a subject you could look into. As I understand it the reed beds purify the water (each reed bed in series is cleaner than the previous one) but they will also help reduce the amount of water because plants transpire water to the atmosphere.

I hope you find a solution and I wonder if the vendors of your property were aware of these difficulties?

[Valencia_Paul]

This website has some info on reed beds, if admin allow the link:

http://www.cresswater.co.uk/reed-about.html

They claim you only need 2 sq meters per person.

[Conehead]

Hi Valencia_Paul,

Yes we did know about the possible problems when we purchased the property. I did seek advice at the time, early last year, but it appears this advice was either wrong or things have changed. As there are only 2 of us and the property is not large I thought there would be no problem.
I would prefer to put in a good system.

Thanks for the link, it was one I was looking for as I had heard about it. For some reason the search engines I use were not finding it.

John Young

[geegee]

Hi, you might find useful info on the green building press forum - http://www.newbuilder.co.uk/. A biological septic tank with natural soakaways would probably do you, and, not as flippant as it sounds, planting fig trees at the edge of it - they absorb much of the nasty stuff! Sorry not totally au-fait with all the technical info but Keith of the GBP will answer any queries you have.

[Faire d'Income]

Conehead. If you go into Garcia's (the Ferreteria) in Colmenar you can see examples of the septic tank that you need with the correct outlets sitting outside. I can put you in touch with a reputable builder if you want, either English or Spanish.

[Conehead]

Thanks to all for the pointers, I am checking on them as soon as possible.

Faire d'Income
I did paid a visit to the "Ironmonger" you refer to when I was over last May. I cannot remember the septic tank and ask if it would be possible to take a photograph so that I can see what I am up against. You can email it, see profile, any format and any size, "we have the technology" to deal with formats etc!
The main problem with a septic tank is that they require emptying occasionally and access for a large truck would not be easy.
Regarding installation, that would not be a problem provided I can get a small back-hoe to carry out the excavation work (Bob cat or similar).

[Bongtrees]

The main problem with a septic tank is that they require emptying occasionally and access for a large truck would not be easy.
Regarding installation, that would not be a problem provided I can get a small back-hoe to carry out the excavation work (Bob cat or similar).

A correctly installed septic tank will never need emptying, however, I would have assumed you should get permission from the Town Hall? Whenever I have had one installed, a test hole was dug, filled with water and the time taken to leach the water from the hole recorded

If the water table is too high for instance the septic tank can be pushed out of the ground, if the ground is not porous you could be surrounded by a quagmire.

Also you might for instance be be too close to a river or water source, well and pollute it.

I think that EU legislation has been tightened on installation of septic tanks and have heard of some town halls actually demanding the closed sort which requires frequent emptying.

All depends on your attitude to getting permission and following installation guidelines.

Mike

[El Cid]

A correctly installed septic tank will never need emptying

I think you will find that even the latest ones require that "undigested" sludge needs removing periodically. It may be as long as 10 years but they don't go on for ever without a visit from the "honey cart".

You can get a better idea of the likely pumping frequency from this site

http://tinyurl.com/czdwb


Sid

[Faire d'Income]

I'll try to take a piccy next time I'm over but as Cid says, this is the type that soaks away and Blas usually has one sitting outside or failing that try one of the builders suppliers in town.

We have two, one which collapsed and the other which is about the right size for the property but will need replacing when we extend but neither need a tanker to take away the waste.

[nevada smith]

faire,
would sincerely like to know exactly what happens to the waste...
where does it go... etc...

[Bongtrees]

A correctly installed septic tank will never need emptying

I think you will find that even the latest ones require that "undigested" sludge needs removing periodically. It may be as long as 10 years but they don't go on for ever without a visit from the "honey cart".

You can get a better idea of the likely pumping frequency from this site

http://tinyurl.com/czdwb


Sid

Hi Sid

Only speaking from experience had a Klargester installed 1987 in our UK house, 3 bathrooms, all usual appliances, minimum occupancy 4 max 8 during all those years and has never been emptied and works well.

Never chucked an old badger down it but do occasionally buy a box of bacteria and flush down. Try to encourage people to use Ecover or similar but often they do not and have no idea if people renting it do or not.

Mike

[El Cid]

There are really only 3 types of "tanks".

The Pozo Negra or cesspit, which is now illegal, is basically a large hole in the ground where everything seeps out into the surrounding area with potentially dangerous ecological consequences.

The second type is a large storage tank which needs frequent emptying.

The third type, commonly known as a Depuradora de Oxidacion Total or septic tank, separates the solids from the liquids and dumps the "relatively" clean liquid out into some sort of drainage system. The solids are bio-digested and all that remains is a sludge. Some even have electric air pumps to highten the bacterial action and the liquid output from this is very clean. They are normally a 2 or 3 chamber plastic design.

Only the third type is approved for use on new builds. They do not need emptying in the usual sense but they do need to be "cleaned" occasionally to remove the sludge. If they are not serviced properly the sludge level can increase to the point where it interferes with the normal bacterial action taking place in the chambers and you then basically have reverted to a Pozo Negra.

With a new build it is now, under recent changes to the rules, impossible to get a licence to live in the building if you do not have an approved system and also have a water purification system for drinking water unless you are on the town supply.

One big manufacturer is Salher at www.salher.com

Sid

[spanish_lad]

I hope you find a solution and I wonder if the vendors of your property were aware of these difficulties?

and why do you think they sold it ??

[Conehead]

Hi to all,

Thanks for all the replies and information.
Spanish_lad, yes it was a thought that passed through my mind but as I mentioned the collapsed existing system was known about before we bought. It was unfortunate that the information given while the purchase process was taking place was not really correct. I know I should of posed the problem on this forum before but now its too late!
Its the ground and the possible lack of soaking away that may be the problem hence the reed bed and septic tank solution may not work.
There is a Canadian idea that uses a dry composting idea which may be worth looking into but I think that does not work for grey water.
While we were looking we were shown may country places which had no sewer at all and I wonder how they get away with that!
If I could attach photographs I could show the problem with the ground but this forum does not appear to allow that!!!!!!

[Conehead]

Further to my above posting having just returned from breakfast, I am on site, I can assure you that I would prefer to walk a few km to use a "potty" to what is outside here. Minus what temperature I do not know, winds up to 60km/h with snow howling along the Bay of St Lawrence is not my idea of "normal" living conditions any more!

[Valencia_Paul]

Hi to all,

While we were looking we were shown may country places which had no sewer at all and I wonder how they get away with that!

A septic tank is no problem providing you have a suitable site for one.
I would be surprised if you were allowed a dry composting solution in an urban (or any) area in Spain. Let us know if you find a solution.