Volkswagen.

[El Cid]

It's also been going on for a very long time.

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.ns ... enDocument

Sid

[Devils Advocate]

My own personal views on it are quite simplistic really. Modern Diesel vehicles in most cases are not fit for purpose.
You still have diesel die-hards purchasing oil burners with a perceived belief that long term economy of ownership is a cert.
It may have been true in the past, in fact it was, but not now, and dealerships are still happy to sell these vehicles to clients they know full well will be doing less than 10000m per annum with an average speed of 28mph......the kiss of death.

When EGR was introduced a simple blanking plate was marketed for coppers to be slotted in the housing disrupting/blocking the recirculation, to combat that sensors were fitted (by ford at least) to trip a light if this happened.........people would then cut a hole in the plate to let "some" gas through to fool the sensors........or just remove the plate at MOT time, as if the average tester would pick up on it anyway.

DPF was the final blow to the private diesel vehicle.
It makes me smile really, if a derv car is sluggish the mechanics advice will invariably be " Get the car hot then foot to the board in 3rd"..............thus releasing a years worth of hydrocarbons in one go, and putting a smoke screen down Bond would be proud of.

Until they stamp "not suitable for low mileage and slow/town driving" on these cars people will still buy them, when they shouldn't be.

[El Cid]

There are two main problems that are stimulating the sales of diesels.

First, the tax structure, particularly in the UK favours cars with low CO2 emissions. You get lower road tax, lower benefit in kind tax etc. The only way to consistently get lower CO2 emissions is by using diesels - petrol is getting closer but will never close the gap as diesel is inherently a more efficient fuel than petrol.

Secondly, the EU has imposed stringent targets of CO2 emissions that the manufacturers have to achieve across their whole range of vehicles. This has produced a spate of seriously good small turbo petrol engines with amazing economy and performance, but still not enough to match the best diesels. The EU target was to get them down to 130gm by 2015. This has been achieved. The next target is 95g by 2021. Many diesel engines are below this now, but the target has to apply to the average across all the cars that a company produces (with some exceptions), so it is much more difficult for companies like BMW, Mercedes and Porsche to achieve this as they have fewer small cars in the mix.

The EU does have special rules for NOx emissions, but they have not been publicised as much as there are currently no tax implications of having a high NOx car. The problem with the VW issue is entirely related to NOx emissions, not CO2. It is a very expensive and complicated process to get a diesel to get anywhere near the new EURO6 limits and the USA limits are more than 50% lower than the EU limits.

Diesel engines in motor vehicles were originally found in commercial vehicles where the engine characteristics suited the usage. Sadly, when these CO2 limits came into effect, it encouraged even more diesels to be fitted in smaller, non commercial vehicles when they really should never have been there. As DA has said, they are no longer "fit for purpose" and it's not surprising that the manufacturers are doing anything to meet the new rules at the same time keeping the price within bounds.

I seriously believe that within 10 years, diesel sales will be almost non existent, certainly on small family cars.

Sid

[Enrique]

Hi El Cid,
"I seriously believe that within 10 years, diesel sales will be almost non existent, certainly on small family cars."
A lot of commentators saying this too...........

Just hope we're still around to see this................

Even Euro6 not making the Grade...............

http://www.airqualitynews.com/2015/05/2 ... ove-limit/

[chrissiehope]

... will be doing less than 10000m per annum with an average speed of 28mph......the kiss of death.....

I recently bought a Berlingo - as I am one of those people doing less than average mileage (approx 5,000 m pa ) I wanted a petrol engine as I knew that diesel ones didn't like low miles. Unfortunately, petrol Berlingos are a bit like hen's teeth, so in the end I had to go for diesel.

Mind you, I don't do 28 mph - it's usually about 10mph over the limit - somewhere, there's a speed camera with my name on it.....

[Devils Advocate]

Mind you, I don't do 28 mph

I'm sure you don't Chrissie, however you'd be surprised at your average speed over a month or so if you looked at the cars trip computer. Unless M'way driving every day my bet would be 31mph tops

[peteroldracer]

It is interesting that no other manufacturer is commenting....they are not usually backward in having a gloat and claiming superiority!

[TorreDelAguila]

Amid all this, it's not only the other manufacturers that are keeping quiet. We shouldn't forget that petrol cars have their own complex cocktail of damaging gases and compounds that come from their tailpipes.

I hope that all this will just accelerate the shift towards all-electric vehicles (fed, obviously by increasingly green energy). For the school run and many commutes, there are more than adequate all-electrics available right now, and with known battery costs.

For a real eye-opener, just Google something along the lines of "electric vehicles made in China" to find literally hundreds of companies producing cars, vans, and even double-decker buses - with the motivation of combating their dire urban smogs.

Interestingly, many of these are using Tesla-developed batteries and technology, surely a path to follow at the moment.

As for hydrids (petrol-electrics and diesel-electrics), forget them. They are simply another manufacturers' dodge for getting the CO2 figure down, but are generally hopeless at achieving overall real-world consimption and emission figures. We learn that most of Boris's hybrid London buses are actually using more fuel than their sister diesels, with impaired performance and reliability.

It seems that, following Boris's recent visit to China touting the so-called new Routemaster, the Chinese were so appalled by its spec that they have sent to London a clutch of all-electric buses to show how it ought to be done. These are currently on test in East London.

[Devils Advocate]

So I guess we won't see VAG engines in a Red Bull Formula 1 car any time soon?

[Flexo]

I think this is the tip of an iceberg that will eventually kill the entire combustion car. BMW has already stated that they will change to only electric cars within a 10 year period. Volvo was fined for doing something similar as Volkswagen did back in the 90s so it is probably quite prevalent by now.

[peteroldracer]

Surely the answer is to change the test for a "real" one, with a car on the road, being driven for a few hours? With random selection by the authorities of the cars to be used, it would bring a general improvement in condition of them following PDI, and an honest set of figures.

[El Cid]

Yes, it would, but the car industry doesn't want to do so that, they keep putting pressure on the EU to delay the change to the new test.

Sid

[TorreDelAguila]

It could well be that almost no current vehicles are capable of meeting the latest EPA and EU emission standards, without manipulation of the test procedure. It is unlikely that any one manufacturer has "the answer" to obtaining low figures on the road.

My guess is that the latest international emission standards will be temporarily 'relaxed', or sparingly applied, while the present "difficulties" prevail.

[BENIDORM]

I've been aware of the health problems associated with Diesel and other fuel oils for a long time.
I was 'diagnosed' as having an 'allergy' to diesel fuel after serving in diesel engine submarines, it affected my breathing and skin and I was advised not to drive or work with diesel engine cars etc.
However I did own and drive a diesel vehicle for 6 years here in Spain, mainly because of the low fuel cost, but it did affect my health and within months of changing back to petrol my health improved, so I guess it's not just about inhaling the toxic emissions from vehicles near me and I wasn't surprised to hear about the VW fiasco...

Anyway I wonder how many members actually drive 'petrol' cars ?

Regards,
Gordon

[olive]

50% if they fit the European norm

[Miro]

Diesel here. Average less than 5,000kms per year

[El Cid]

We have a 14 year old petrol 4x4 and a 2 year old SEAT petrol. The new SEAT replaced a diesel. Thanks for loads of advice from our resident petrolhead DA, I changed to petrol. Best advice I have ever had on this forum!

Sid

[gerryh]

I'm about to replace my petrol engined car and am thinking of a used diesel engined car.
Before moving to Spain I had diesel engined cars for many years.
So, briefly, why shouldn't i do it?
Cheers
Gerry

[Devils Advocate]

Hi Gerry.

I think a lot depends on how old a car you are looking at and how much you are spending. If you are looking at nearly new then I'm sure Sid will give you first hand experience of his choice and why, if pre 2007/2008 and pre DPF then it's not a huge issue.

In Sid's case he was shelling out a large sum of money on a brand new vehicle, and even more for a diesel model. His Turbo charged petrol is quicker, cleaner, less prone to emission and other faults and damn near as frugal on fuel.

Edited.

Many thanks Sid for your comments. Appreciated.

[gerryh]

Almost definitely pre 2007/2008 as I don't want to spend more than about €3000 to €4000 and no objection if I spent less.
Cheers
Gerry