New Car v Used Car

Information and questions about driving in Andalucia, buying or importing cars and motorbikes plus legal issues surrounding taxes and licenses.
TorreDelAguila
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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby TorreDelAguila » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:11 pm

peteroldracer wrote: Lessons learnt in my first day if sales training “Always ask for the order” and “Assume the sale is made”!
That reminded me of some advice I once got about how to deal with unwanted telephone (or doorstep) sales:
"What are you selling?"
"No, no, we're not selling, just wanting to talk to . . ."
"Oh, that's a shame, because I was hoping to buy."
:shifty:
Last edited by TorreDelAguila on Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby Devils Advocate » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:18 pm

However the car would be under warranty whether you bought it or paid to loan it via PCP wouldn't it? should anything go wrong.

I agree with your point about cars becoming so complicated now they are outside the remit of many good DIY'ers and even none franchised workshops, however on the other hand I'd argue they've become infinitely more reliable and less prone to failures than cars of the past.
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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby El Cid » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:27 pm

Clearly the best solution, but definitely not the cheapest is to buy new on finance every 4 years with a 4 year warranty and free servicing. Never have to do an ITV ever again!

Sid

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby katy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:29 pm

Devils Advocate wrote:Just read an article saying 80% of new car sales last year in the UK were PCP, don't know whether that's a trend happening in other countries too. If true then I'm staggered.

A salesman must now look in disbelief when someone walks in to actually buy a car.
This is the feeling I get from talking to people. I haven't decided if I should buy a new car after Xmas but If I do i will l look at the figures. According to the ad that flashed up (not come up since) it was something like £2100 deposit for the Jaguar and £245 pm. Not seen the T&Cs but if I bought the Jaguar cash and sold it after two years surely I would lose more than that :think:

Not that I want a Jaguar, was thinking of going back to my roots, my first car was a Mini cooper. A friend has got a John cooper or something and it looks good, better than my boring golf. Mine had it's first test in April and was informed it would soon need new disc pads and other things. also paid £800+ for faulty locking system, failed because one back door was jammed. Hence the thought of getting rid. As I know nothing about cars, neither does OH I always feel as if I am being stitched up.

really I would like a vintage car if I had money to burn :mrgreen:

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby Devils Advocate » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:32 pm

El Cid wrote:Clearly the best solution, but not the cheapest is to buy new every 4 years with a 4 year warranty and free servicing. Never have to do an ITV ever again!

Sid
Again though Sid and I agree with your point but the servicing will not be free, even if it's billed as such. Someone is paying for it and I can't see it being the dealer. Bear in mind that what a service costs a dealer and what they put on your invoice are 2 totally different figures.
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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby Devils Advocate » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:40 pm

Katy, if you can live with the "stigma" of buying nearly new I'd like to see you do your figures again, that is a really cost effective way of not chucking money down the drain with no real negatives.

You have the advantage as well because these cars are hard to shift at present and superb deals can be done, in general a lot of people going for PCP can't afford this route, as manic as it seems. Never thought I'd see the day when it was easier on the pocket to buy new than used but it does in fact cost more in the end.
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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby El Cid » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:03 pm

Devils Advocate wrote:
Again though Sid and I agree with your point but the servicing will not be free, even if it's billed as such. Someone is paying for it and I can't see it being the dealer. .
So long as I'm not paying, that's OK with me.

Personally, my guess is that the finance companies are often owned by the manufacturer, Volkswagen Finance is a good example. Once you get such a big operation, taking into account that there are so many companies in the group, maybe there is some creative accounting going on here.

Dawoo was a very successful car manufacturer, but they went bust because of their financial subsidiary.

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby Devils Advocate » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:30 pm

This is the point I'm trying to get through Sid, you are paying for it.
Volkswagon group and their bank are 2 very successful companies as you know, their finance arm is one of the most powerful in Europe.

They make money, they don't give things away and certainly are not giving free servicing and the rest FOC, it's all part of a clever and lucrative marketing plan.

The game has not changed as I said since I was full time in the trade, the dealer wants to make as much as he can from the deal and so does the manufacturer and finance house. It's just marketed differently now.

0% finance for instance, we used to offer it at certain times and it brought in a steady flow of people. However the payback for the customer was a poor bid on his p/x, or if there was no p/x he'd pay full ticket price to obtain the offer. A cash buyer would be able to negotiate a generous discount though. Although once discount was given he'd be chased if he then said "can I have 0% as well"

People have smartened up now and the packaging of deals needs to reflect this as seen with all these finance/free service/free this and that offers. It's obviously working too, people really do like the feeling of getting something for nothing even if in reality they aren't.
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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby gerrynag » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:23 pm

I would much rather pay 'cash' and not worry about re-payments, etc.
If you have the money, I think that with low saving interest rates then you may as well pay upfront for the car and not go for credit, which is my preference anyway.
I still can't get my head round the fact that it is cheaper to buy a car on credit compared to 'cash'. I think that there must be some sort of 'con' going on for that to happen.

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby katy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:33 pm

Devils Advocate wrote:Katy, if you can live with the "stigma" of buying nearly new I'd like to see you do your figures again, that is a really cost effective way of not chucking money down the drain with no real negatives.

You have the advantage as well because these cars are hard to shift at present and superb deals can be done, in general a lot of people going for PCP can't afford this route, as manic as it seems. Never thought I'd see the day when it was easier on the pocket to buy new than used but it does in fact cost more in the end.
I did with this one although there is always a little niggle as to why they are selling. :lol: I am going to do some calculations if I decide to buy another but I agree, don't think it will be new if cash, almost will do.

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby Devils Advocate » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:07 pm

Mainly for sale because they've come to the end of a 2 year lease Katy. Depending on the lease conditions the cars will nearly always have low mileages.

Specialist Auctions often classed as "Trade only" will dispose of these cars and a lot of them will be snatch backs/forfeited cars too, so sometimes much younger than 2 years old.

Buy right and the cost of ownership is way cheaper than even the 3k up front £260 per month lease plans.
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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby markwilding » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:53 pm

On the other hand I have a seven year guarantee. Free breakdown and I only need to service the car every 2 years so until now, I have only had to pay just over 200 hundred euros for the one service it has had so far. You have to go to a main dealer to comply with the conditions of the guarantee so It would not be clever to do the sevice yourself.
A 3 to 4 year old car can have exactly the same problems as a new one.

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby El Cid » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:53 pm

DA, your assertion that the customer is paying for the discount is not always the case.

Please explain why, if VAG give me an extended warranty and servicing (which if I had ordered them as normal options) would have added over €1000 to the price, plus a €3500 discount in exchange for me taking out a finance deal which will cost me about €1000 in interest, that I am paying for it. I accept your view that someone is paying for it but it’s not me.

If I did not take the finance deal, I would not get any other discount at all. The part exchange price was agreed long before I placed the order and whether I would pay by finance vs cash had not been discussed. In fact they honoured the p/ex price even though the delivery was nearly 8 months later.

I think you need to accept that the way they do business here is very different to your experiences in the UK. At your own admission, you have never bought a car in Spain. I have bought 4 new cars in Spain.

It seems amazing that seems to be the way it works here and it seems crazy to me, but they seem to be selling a lot of cars!

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby alpineSi » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:29 pm

gerrynag wrote:I would much rather pay 'cash' and not worry about re-payments, etc.
If you have the money, I think that with low saving interest rates then you may as well pay upfront for the car and not go for credit, which is my preference anyway.
I understand not wanting to get into debt, but it seems we're not talking about that. Ignoring the price differences or supposed benefits of buying on finance, if the choice is simply between paying 10k up front or putting that 10k into an account and letting 250 a month come out every month, what is the actual difference?

I suppose I come from the first generation to have student loans hanging over us for the rest of our lives so maybe we view these things differently.

Anyway, I still think the real money is in selling our data now - consider everything you have to hand over for the finance check!

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby markwilding » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:28 pm

I see it that way as well. I can’t remember if PPI was offered but I would never take it out because I only buy something if I already have the money. This is the same with credit cards. I use them for the extra benefits they offer so have never taken out PPI because it has never been necessary.

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby Devils Advocate » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:47 pm

El Cid wrote:DA, your assertion that the customer is paying for the discount is not always the case.

Please explain why, if VAG give me an extended warranty and servicing (which if I had ordered them as normal options) would have added over €1000 to the price, plus a €3500 discount in exchange for me taking out a finance deal which will cost me about €1000 in interest, that I am paying for it. I accept your view that someone is paying for it but it’s not me.

If I did not take the finance deal, I would not get any other discount at all. The part exchange price was agreed long before I placed the order and whether I would pay by finance vs cash had not been discussed. In fact they honoured the p/ex price even though the delivery was nearly 8 months later.

I think you need to accept that the way they do business here is very different to your experiences in the UK. At your own admission, you have never bought a car in Spain. I have bought 4 new cars in Spain.

It seems amazing that seems to be the way it works here and it seems crazy to me, but they seem to be selling a lot of cars!

Sid
I think the way they do business in Spain is exactly the same as in the UK, ie the idea for a business is to take as much from the deal as they can.

Offering "free" servicing and the rest is not the sole domain of Spain, it happens here too.
However if you think it's free then I have to give in and realise you will not be swayed.
Out of interest will your yearly service include an oil change or is a case of "It's long life oil sir"? another con lol. Also when the service is carried out do you check it actually has been done? I have, and with surprising but not unexpected results.

At the end of the day though, if you are happy with the deal that's all that matters.

If the deal is too good to be true, it usually is.
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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby El Cid » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:23 am

Obviously we have to agree to differ on this point.

As for servicing, my car is on a two year servicing cycle and it only ever uses long life oil as that is the only option, and yes, that is included in the "free" service. A one year option is available at no extra charge, but the cars leave the factory set up for 2 years/30000km service plans.

Back to the OP's question about buying in Spain, another thing they all do is (in the brochures and in all their advertising) quote the list price including finance. Some ads just show the PCP price. Take the SEAT Ibiza, the best selling car in Spain. The "list price" is "From" €11860. When you run the online configurator and get to the final price it is, indeed, €11860 but in the detailed list of specs and options, there is a magical item which they call "Apportacion Comercial" of -€3200.

In the very small, and only just readable, print it points out that this price assumes you are taking out finance. So the list price is actually €15060. No where in any of their publicity will you see this price mentioned.

Is this a con? No. Is it highly misleading? Yes.

Sid

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby markwilding » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:16 am

DA
I totally get that nothing is for free but it makes no difference if fiancé results in paying less overall compared to paying up front. If the companies increase the price to counteract the discount, then those who pay in cash lose out twice. they pay the higher price to cover the discount and then don't get the discount either.

If a car were cheaper paying in cash any savvy buyer wanting to buy using credit would just head to his bank where the interest rates were similar, have the same repayment terms and also get the discount for a cash sale at the dealers.

I have repeatedly said that this is the third new car I have bought and the last two have been the older and newer versions of the same car. I paid less with finance this time than last time when I paid in cash. when I pushed for more discount both times they reduced it 500 Euros and no matter how hard I tried I could not get more. I got the impression that this was up to the discretion of the seller and the limit allowed by Kia

If someone who has bought a new car and got the massive discount without taking out the finance as well posts, I will stand corrected but even then I have to say they wouldn't budge when I tried.

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby gerrynag » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:59 am

El Cid wrote:Obviously we have to agree to differ on this point.

As for servicing, my car is on a two year servicing cycle and it only ever uses long life oil as that is the only option, and yes, that is included in the "free" service. A one year option is available at no extra charge, but the cars leave the factory set up for 2 years/30000km service plans.

Back to the OP's question about buying in Spain, another thing they all do is (in the brochures and in all their advertising) quote the list price including finance. Some ads just show the PCP price. Take the SEAT Ibiza, the best selling car in Spain. The "list price" is "From" €11860. When you run the online configurator and get to the final price it is, indeed, €11860 but in the detailed list of specs and options, there is a magical item which they call "Apportacion Comercial" of -€3200.

In the very small, and only just readable, print it points out that this price assumes you are taking out finance. So the list price is actually €15060. No where in any of their publicity will you see this price mentioned.

Is this a con? No. Is it highly misleading? Yes.

Sid
Yes, I found that when I went on the Skoda website and went through the car configuration tool it automatically included the finance charge and I couldn't remove it.
Must admit couldn't see the Apportacion Comercial item, but from the sound of it, it was easy to miss.

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Re: New Car v Used Car

Postby gerrynag » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:30 pm

alpineSi wrote:
gerrynag wrote:I would much rather pay 'cash' and not worry about re-payments, etc.
If you have the money, I think that with low saving interest rates then you may as well pay upfront for the car and not go for credit, which is my preference anyway.
I understand not wanting to get into debt, but it seems we're not talking about that. Ignoring the price differences or supposed benefits of buying on finance, if the choice is simply between paying 10k up front or putting that 10k into an account and letting 250 a month come out every month, what is the actual difference?

I suppose I come from the first generation to have student loans hanging over us for the rest of our lives so maybe we view these things differently.

Anyway, I still think the real money is in selling our data now - consider everything you have to hand over for the finance check!
The difference is I suppose is that I have the money now, but who knows what the future holds. Maybe in 2 years time for whatever reason, I couldn't afford to pay the finance payments, therefore they would take the car back and I would be left without one.
I know this is probably unlikely, but maybe it is a generational thing, the millennial generation seem quite at easy with been in debt, while us baby boomers generally aren't.
I paid my mortgage off early, even though its interest rate was very low and I could have earned more by putting the money in a high interest savings account, (this was when savings rates were better). I did it because the house was then totally mine and not partially owned by the building society.
I guess the same thing applies to a car.


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