Tortoise

[Bluebell]

Buenas tardes to all,
Anybody know if is possible to buy and keep a tortoise in Andalucia? Any information would be great, I´d like to get one for my son (and me).

[princess peach]

Yes Bluebell,i have seen quite a few tortoises for sale!
They are pretty expensive tho.well over 100 euros.maybe even 200 plus,i cant remember the exact price,but i remember thinking crikey they are pricey!
I know a few pet shops in my local town (la linea)have them.

[Bluebell]

Bloody hell, that is expensive. Thanks though. Next time I make a trip to Gib I´ll check out la Linea. Probably pm you beforehand for more details.

[princess peach]

I can find out for definate if you want a more on the spot price.
I looked at them,thats why i know they are an expensive pet.seems a lot to pay for something that kips alot.

[Jane and Terry]

I saw some today at the pet shop in the El Ingenio centre at Velez Malaga. !49 euros each and maybe only 4 inches long.

[wildside]

Nothing changes...

An older article from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/anima ... 703971.stm

British tourists are breaking the law by bringing tortoises home from their holiday as pets.

And so many tortoises are now being caught to sell to tourists that there is a danger that they might become extinct.

Undercover officers for the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) recently found more than 500 spur-thigh tortoises on sale in Morocco in North Africa.

It is against the law to take spur-thigh tortoises from Africa into Europe.

But the people selling them lied to the RSPCA officers, saying there was nothing wrong with bringing them back to Britain.

Most die within four years

The animals are so small that two tortoises, bought for just £10, were brought into Britain in the pocket of a child.

And the tragedy doesn't end there.

Most tortoises brought illegally into Britain die less than four years after being taken from the wild..

I would very much like to know the species name given in pet shops in Spain, More than likely they are spur thighed from just a few miles south....

Buying a tortoise from a pet shop just makes the shop search a supplier for more stock.....

[wildside]

And,

Maybe this will help with a decision in whether to buy a tortoise from a pet shop or not... The law in Spain is the same as UK as it is a EU directive...

Please ask in the pet shop if the tortoise are captive bred, where they came from and the licence number granted to sell captive bred tortoise....

http://www.slowcoach.org.uk/sloinfo.html

A Brief History of Mediterranean Tortoises

Importation of Mediterranean tortoises into the UK and other countries began in the 1890's. Between then and 1984 (when the trade stopped) it is estimated that the total number of importations, into the UK alone, was in excess of 10 million animals.

Most of them were Mediterranean Spur-thighed tortoises from North Africa. These unfortunate creatures were caught in their native country, stuffed into crates, sacks and boxes to be dispatched on a long and agonising journey to be sold in pet shops throughout Europe. Many were dead on arrival and others were sick, injured or weakened badly. Of the ones that were actually sold it is estimated that only 10% survived their first year of captivity. ie, from 100 sold only 10 survived.

After the Second World War, stocks in North Africa were dwindling and so attention was turned to the hardier East European tortoises, such as the Hermann's and Marginated Species. Again, these were imported in the same conditions as before with little thought for their welfare.

In some countries, tortoises are still captured and killed to make souvenirs for tourists, such as these "tortoise banjos" from Morocco. Please, please never be tempted to buy this sort of thing when on holiday. By doing so you are condoning the slaughter of these animals.

In 1984 a ban was imposed. The EEC Council agreed to treat three species of tortoise (Spur-thighed, Hermann's and Marginated) according to Appendix 1 of the Convention for International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). This prohibited the commercial trade in these species and meant that they were completely protected.

Mediterranean tortoises can still be obtained, however, as they are bred successfully in captivity. It must be pointed out, however, that for the sale, barter or exchange of these tortoises a licence is required from the relavent authority. In UK this is the Department of The Environment: residents of other countries should check who their relevant authority is.

[Jane and Terry]

There was nothing displayed about the poor little things other than the price. They were right at the front of the shop too, but there didn't seem to be any information about where they were bred . I was really surprised to see them . They were so little.

[princess peach]

49 euros each and maybe only 4 inches long

The ones i have seen are fully grown,maybe that is why they were so expensive.
I had a friend whos dad breeds them here in Spain,he gave his grandchildren one each(3)they were extremely cruel to them.I was sure i saw a worm crawl out from ones neck.a few weeks later they were supposidly hibernating,they never woke up and were eaten by whatever i saw from inside the shell.If they had bothered to have a look at them,they probably couldve took them to the vets and got some simple parasite killer and they would be still alive.Children werent bothered.Didnt deserve to have them in the first place.

[wildside]

The ones i have seen are fully grown,maybe that is why they were so expensive.

If they were fully grown I would expect them to be a bit more than 100 to 200 Euros....

I'd like to see the licence for your friends dads tortoise breeding programme and I would like to know the exact species that is being bred.

Clive

[princess peach]

'd like to see the licence for your friends dads tortoise breeding programme and I would like to know the exact species that is being bred.

Clive,i havent got a clue,I think they were his pet tortoises and they had babies,nothing sinister.I wouldve thought if he was a professional breeder he wouldnt have given his 3 young grandchildren one each and left them to basically kill them.

[princess peach]

Hi Bluebell,i dont know if you are still about or have been frightened off by the above comments!
I have been into my pet shop today and they have two tortoises la tierra in stock.
They were approx 5-6 inches long and were 160.00 euros..

[wildside]

I am not sure whether giving relevant information about pet tortoises, their import, sale and legality is frightening... The devastating affect the pet trade has had on these creatures (and others) should speak for itself.

What would have been nice though is (after you had read the above alarming posts) if you had asked the man in the pet shop what species the ones at 160 Euros were and where they came from... They may be perfectly legal captive bred ones with the right licences... You could have posted the information here...

Seems to me the only thing anyone is bothered about is how big they are and how much they cost. This is of course totally wrong.

[princess peach]

What would have been nice though is (after you had read the above alarming posts) if you had asked the man in the pet shop what species the ones at 160 Euros were and where they came from... They may be perfectly legal captive bred ones with the right licences... You could have posted the information here...

All very well Clive If this was your post however it isnt,Its Bluebells.
If Bluebell decides to post again and wants the relevant information i will go back in and ask my lovely friendly pet shop owner exactly what she wants to know.At the present moment in time all Bluebell wanted to know was

Anybody know if is possible to buy and keep a tortoise in Andalucia?

.and as far as im aware her question has been answered,this is a forum after all.
Thankyou.

[Bluebell]

Wow, guys, thank you so much for all this info. It is just want I needed and I kind of suspected something cruel might be going on. I will certainly look closely now if I persue it in the pet shops and now I know the appropriate questions to ask. I certainly don't to buy the illegal ones... I have been a bit put off though mainly because I would hate it to die within the first year.

Perhaps you could help me on another matter... we can't have dogs, cats, hamsters, rabbits or any of the usual domestic pets because of allergies so what do you suggest? I thought perhaps some fish... I don't like the idea of a bird (in a cage).

Any helpful suggestions appreciated, especially from those who have experienced this?

[wildside]

Perhaps you could help me on another matter... we can't have dogs, cats, hamsters, rabbits or any of the usual domestic pets because of allergies so what do you suggest? I thought perhaps some fish... I don't like the idea of a bird (in a cage).

Well, it says on your "thingy" that you are in Cadiz province.... There are some incredibly diverse habitats just in this small part of Andalucia and I suggest getting out into the countryside with a camera and a pair of binoculars.... (maybe better presents than an animal in a cage).... I will be very glad to point you in the direction your kids are interested in..... Creepy crawlies?, Banded centipedes, funnel web spiders and scorpions? or quick moving snakes and lizards...? Griffon vultures soaring in the sky with a 2 metre wingspan or the Ibex grazing the mountain woodlands of the Sierra de Grazalema.. Get the kids to draw what they see, paint what they see or if they are techy start an on line album of their photographs... web diary?

The "pet shop" is out there!... it's under the rocks and in the trees and spiralling the thermals of Andalucia... I'm not a kid any more more, but "it", "life", still fills me with awe and wonder especially when I search the field behind my house and find a new bug or other creature that I have never seen before.... To find a creature once abundant but now almost extinct just because it was collected to be put in a cage is a very sad reflection on who we are as members of this world... (maybe some thought about that theory could solve a lot of world issues...)

I guess this is now well off topic but what I am talking about is how to inspire our kids into discovering life rather than watching it from the other side of a cage after it has been bagged, tagged and sold as a commodity.... There are always alternatives.

[katy]

Yeah, good points. Like the website too

[alaninspain]

I once paid 7/6p in the YK for a licence for my pet, I still have it and it still kips a lot and is quite expensive to maintain. I only keep her because I can't cook.

[ken2]

Wildlife, i too like to get out and about with my camera, birds, wild flowers ect ect ect, but never been one for turning over rocks, i doo look close in piles of rock for lizerds, but no way turning over and finding a spider, i really hate to see them even,and i really can see where you are coming from with the kid,s good start in life to learn not to kill or put in cages all things that should be free.

[Bluebell]

Exactly, don't like the idea of a cage.

Thank you so much for all your comments, they're all very helpful.

wildside, thanks in particular, you certainly know your stuff and have given me some food for thought.

I have done a bit of bug hunting with the kids (nothing as cool as you describe). We go to Grazalema most Sundays in winter. We've turned over rocks and "caught" bugs in a plastic lid or something similar, then tried to look it up in our little handbook to find out what it is. Then said bye-bye and put them back. Our highlight (or my son's at least) was when we caught 2 scorpions! Perhaps we could hook up some time and you could give me some tips/inspiration, you are far less squeamish then me!

Also I think they'd listen to you!!! I'll pm you.