Urbanisation questions

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Jool
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Urbanisation questions

Postby Jool » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:35 pm

Difficult to explain so hope I can make it clear.

Province of Almeria

Bought house in 2005. House has been registered as a house on Registro since 1989. Says urban land on nota simple but urbanisable on catastro.

We have mains electricity, land line phones and water from a private reservoir owned by someone with water rights, all on pozo negro. All houses less than 800m from beach.

Found out in 2007 that there is ongoing disagreement between town hall and residents (only about 20 houses all on large plots, smallest is 1000m2, largest is 60000m2) and amongst certain of the residents about the plan to make us an urbanisation. Town Hall consulted with all owners back in 2004 and no one wanted tarmac roads, street lights, mains drainage. Town Hall then removed the right to choose a contractor and told everyone they would have to accept the town hall´s choice.

This was all before we bought the house.

Situation now is that in 2007 town Hall said we would be forced to do this and would also have to cough up a share of a million euros to reinforce an old small rambla that is just au natural, never floods property but has closed the access track twice a year or so for no more than a day. Sums of 30 euros per m2 of land have been mentioned but no one has given a fixed price in writing and despite letter of 2007 nothing has happened. A land survey was done and mysteriously we all gained m2 of land!!!! We gained 300m2. However this was used as a catastro amendment as well and ours was so inaccurate it is useless and Town Hall has put a ban on any catastro changes as there were so many errors they could not cope! This ban has been in force for 8 months now.

What are our rights in this situation? We are referred to as an urbanisation now but not really one in line with EU law. WE like te peace and quiet and seeing the stars at night but other neighbours, who only own land and bought as an investment, want the urbanisation as then their land becomes urban direct and worth a lot more. Those of us who live here year round do not want it. Yes it would be nice to have tarmac roads but that´s all we would benefit from in real terms. WE dont want ´more traffic, street lights or mains sewage, there is no sewage works to go to anyway.

The EU directive o 2010 says all urbanisations must have tarmac road etc etc but there is no hope of that with us, and we do not have any money to contribute either. Have been told they will take some of our land away if we do not pay but no one can tell us how much it will be anyway! Mayor says to keep quiet as Town Hall will try and get a developer to pay for the infra-structure (or a hefty part of it) as we are surrounded by undeveloped land very close to the beach. But the mayor is not the real power base of our local town hall, someone else is there.

There is also a road widening program that has been signed up to start FROM 2012 (no date set) and this road will have to cross some of the land that is included within the urbanisation boundary although it will not affect our house, it will affect the access to our properties from the road however......

As you can tell it is all very complicated and unclear and we just feel we are sitting ducks with no knowledge or power.........what would you suggest we do David? Is there real support available to fight this? We have consulted with a solicitor unconnected to the town hall and he just says wait for them to make a move, but in the meantime we cannot sell of course.

Clearly there was a fudge somewhere along the line to make these houses legal but that was back in 1980´s...... and now our current mayor etc has to clean it all up......

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DavidSearl
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Re: Urbanisation questions

Postby DavidSearl » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:18 pm

Jool,

Oh, dear, what a mess. Thousands of longtime owners all over Andalusia are in the same boat. They bought when everything consisted of a few houses in the countryside and now progress is rolling towards them. I can offer little hope of resistance, but you can obtain power and knowlege. This will involve time, trouble and expense on your part.

1. At some point, your 20 houses will become a developed estate. Have you check your town's new PGOU to see how your zone is qualified?
2. You can sit back and let it be done to you, paying whatever they charge, or you can hire your own expert lawyer and try to form
3. A "Junta de Compensación", a Compensation Board, which is the legal form of a group that might include, the owners of land or houses, the Town Hall, the water board, the sanitation department, the highway department, and anyone else involved.
4. This board consists of representatives of each of these groups. By voting, it tries to apportion the expenses and problems in a fair way.
5. See my book You and the Law in Spain in the final section for a fairly complete, and fairly depressing, description of how this can function.
6. You will at some point have tarmac, sewage and all the rest forced upon you. The Compensation Board at least gives you a chance to have some input.

Good Luck with it, David Searl
You and the Law in Spain

Jool
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Re: Urbanisation questions

Postby Jool » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:50 pm

Hi David

Thanks for the reply....I´ll answer the questions first....

We are classified as urban in the PGOU and ours is one that has been approved and agreed.

How can I form a Junta de compensacion without the other owners, most of whom (mixed nationalities) seem content to sit and wait for a demand from the town hall as its rumbled on for so many years for them? I would need everyone on board I think for this to be effective and some plots of land are owned by people we have never seen and no one has been able to create a list of every single property owner here whether land alone or house as well.

Can they still force this on us now, bearing in mind it will all HAVE to change when the road becomes a dual carriageway and that is not scheduled to start for at least 4 years?

Can we be forced to pay for a bridge, as none of us can afford any share of that with prices of 1 million being talked about?

Which edition of your book are you referring to, I´ll read it with a bottle of Rioja.....

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DavidSearl
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Re: Urbanisation questions

Postby DavidSearl » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Jool,

Yes, "they" can force this on all the owners in the incipient "urbanizacion" and they will do so at some point. Perhaps the initiative for the Junta de Compensacion will come from the Town Hall itself, or from the Junta de Andalucia, or the Ministry of Public Works, if a highway is coming and land will be expropriated. Yes, it is a real mess. Hundreds of groups of dwellings all over Spain have suffered this process. It is part of the price of progress.

If your owners do not organise themselves now, they will have even more problems when the time comes. As you remarked in your post, this may not be in your lifetime, but it will come. When it does, no owner can opt out of it. Everybody belongs, whether they want to or not.

The final section of You and the Law in Spain covers this. This section has remained about the same for the last few editions, but I recommend that you get the latest one, the 2009-2010 20th edition. Enjoy your Rioja while you can.

Best Regards, David Searl
You and the Law in Spain

WilliamR
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Re: Urbanisation questions

Postby WilliamR » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:02 am

I am a little unclear about the legal status of a "Comunidad de Vecinos". If a group of home owners organise themselves into a formally constituted "Comunidad de Vecinos" do they actually get any extra legal rights over, for example, maintenance of access roads, building regulations and water supply? or is it just easier to get your voice heard with the "powers-that-be" if you have some sort of democratic authority to represent the community?

When a "Comunidad de Vecinos" is created on an urbanization what happens if not all the neighbours agree to join the association? Can they opt out before it starts? or does the law require all the property owners in the urbanization to join the community if and when it is formed?

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DavidSearl
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Re: Urbanisation questions

Postby DavidSearl » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:38 pm

FROM DAVID SEARL

FOR WILLIAMR

As you describe it, your "Comunidad de Vecinos" sounds to me exactly like the bridge club or the model aeroplane association. A neighbourhood association or a block association. You would have to show us the charter of constitution and where this is registered, with the Junta de Andalucia. I have the feeling that this group has no legal rights whatsoever over anything, including who joins and who doesn't.

It sounds like you are confusing it with a "Comunidad de Propietarios", which is a legal entity registered in the Property Registry with full legal status. See my book "You and the Law in Spain" for a description and a complete translation of the Horizontal Property Law which regulates these condominium ownerships.

And, yes, even such an association gives its members some pulling power with local administrations, as they know a number of people, potential voters, are involved.

Good luck with it, David Searl
You and the Law in Spain

Jool
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Re: Urbanisation questions

Postby Jool » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:56 pm

So does a group of owners who are wanting to form a junta to lisise with various authorities over urbanisation infra structure costs have to create a formal constitution and how seriously would we be taken if we are not the majority but just a significant minority of owners - we live amongst ostriches?

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DavidSearl
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Re: Urbanisation questions

Postby DavidSearl » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:13 am

FROM DAVID SEARL

FOR JOOL

Jool, this is a very complex situation and it is not for even experienced amateurs. I suggest that you assemble your like-minded group, take up a collection, and visit a lawyer familiar with the ground and the procedures. Pay him for a consulation and then you will have a clearer idea of the minefield that awaits you. It is not simple and it will require work and expense and time on the part of those involved. Ostriches have much easier lives, damn them.

Good luck with it, David Searl
You and the Law in Spain

Jool
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Re: Urbanisation questions

Postby Jool » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:56 am

Thanks David, we have tried this and no one except ourselves contributed.............they all said the solicitor was simply trying to make money and we would all be fine.......

We stand to lose our house or loads of our garden as we simply cannot afford the kinds of sums being talked about in the past and already have a substantial mortgage so could not increase that.......of course we were not advised of this when we bought......

Is there a requirement that forces town halls to pay a certain proportion of the costs, and the Junta and EU etc??? These houses have been here like this quite happily for 20 years, no actual need to change....

IKnowNothing
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Re: Urbanisation questions

Postby IKnowNothing » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:30 pm

Very old thread, sorry. But does anyone know how this ended? I'm interested in a house with a plot classified as Suelo Urbano No Consolidado in the PGOU. Should I worry about having to pay 30 E/m2 plot - this one is 6000 m2 - the day the Town Hall decides to "consolidate" the urbanization?

Some more info:
Located in a small urbanization (40 houses, all detached, built in the lates 80's, and with plots 1500 - 6000 m2 in size) in the countryside north of Malaga. Distance to nearest village is some 5-10 kms.

According to the Cadastro the Clase is Urbano and the Uso Principal is Residencia. Nota Simple says Rustica but our lawyer, after having visited the Town Hall personally, informs me this is incorrect nowadays but origins from the time before the urbanization was formed, and that it can be corrected to Urban at a cost of maybe 1500 Euros.

The PGOU from 2013 seems approved and not preliminary as far as I can tell, and classifies the plot as SUNC - Suelo Urbano No Consolidado.

The seller claims there is no community and therefore are no community fees.

Input of any kind highly appreciated. Thanks!


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