Community AGM

[davey]

We are due to have our second AGM meeting in February, we are a community of apartments and vilas, I believe we are governed by section 24 of the Horizontal Property Act.

My question is and i hope someone can assit me with it the General Meeting AGM has been called before the sub-community AGM. Could you tell me if this is normal procedure, I would have thought that the sub-community AGM`s would have been held 1st?

The reason given by the Administrator and the General Community President is the following "The general meeting has to be held first as the budget needs to be approved- because it affects all communities" the administrator then went on to say after I asked the question what would happen if the budget was rejected their reply was "If the Budget is not approved then an extraordinary meeting will need to be called to approve the budget as happened this year"

I have read the books you and the law in spain, and also coomonhold law in spain but i cannot find a difinative answer of if the General Community AGM should take place before or after the sub-community AGM`s.
Thank you

[davey]

i have a question again regarding the General Community AGM being held before the sub-communities AGM`s, if there was enough owners stating that they wished the General Community AGM to be held after the sub-communities AGM could this happen?

How would we achieve this, and how would we put this in to action if this was possible? Would we need to write to the president of the general community or the Administrator to action this?

[Paula]

I don't understand how you could have your sub community meeting before the Community AGM. How could you plan anything financial without an approved budget?

[DavidSearl]

FROM DAVID SEARL

FOR DAVEY

To answer your specific question:
There is nothing in the Law of Horizontal Property which either requires or prohibits holding the meeting of the macrocommunity first, or the meetings of the sub-communities first. So it is a matter for the decision of the assembled owners. If you wish to change the order of meetings, you should have your individual President bring the proposal to the Agenda of the macro meeting, as a first step. Second, you can try to get the subject on the Agenda of the individual AGMs. If a majority of them vote to change the order, then they can charge their Presidents with voting for it at the macro AGM.

Good luck with it, David Searl

[fljordan]

You should bear in mind that issues of the general community are different from issues of each community. Meetings of a general community are called by its president and meetings for each community are also called by its president or 25% of the owners. Owners do not have any relation with the general community directly, only the president of each sub community is entitled to deal with the general community. On the other hand the general community can’t deal with business of each of the communities.
The general community deals with common services or areas belonging to all the sub communities and each sub-community deals with its own business.

Felix

[sampedrena]

David and fljordan, I understand what you are saying here but there seems to be nothing in this Section 24 to prevent the Macrocommunity owners committee (individual community presidents) having absolute power to do as they please.

We have such a situation where a "mafia" style Macro board of 8 individual presidents operate in total secrecy controlling 8 separate communities of over 700 apartments. Owners never receive notice of a Macro AGM or EGM, never receive minutes of those meetings so we have no idea of what has been discussed and resolved until presented with a fait accompli, never see Macro accounts so we have no idea what happens to an income of almost 500.000 euros p.a. Individual communities do not have their own internal rules, these are decided upon and altered at will by the "magnificent 8".
They also believe that if they unanimously agree, they can grant permission for owners to close in their balconies, which is supposed to be contrary to section 7 of this Act.

Complaints to presidents and administrators just get the response that the Macrocommunity is operating within the law, and reading Section 24 this does seem to be the case. Nothing in that section puts any obligation on the Macro owners committee which would address the problems in the previous paragraph.

I'm sure that where the presidents involved have goodwill and good intentions the section 24 situation will work well, but where that is not the case, individual apartment owners are left high and dry. Changing presidents is not a solution.

[fljordan]

In my view, your macro-community is not operating within the law, you are being manipulated by the officers of you community.
You should be careful about the financial situation of your community; there are a lot of communities going bust because there is no debt collection or because there are back-handers administrators and developers in arrears for unsold properties.
Usually, these problems arise in new communities where developers because of this year's economic downturn lead communities in a critical financial situation
These uncontrolled communities with high debts or with a “secrecy culture” may avoid owners to sell their properties because these days prospective buyers are more cautious and therefore are requiring from their conveyancers a report of the accounts of the community as well as an updated copy of the governing documents and minutes of meetings before buy.
Some communities are already technically in bankruptcy and soon they will not be able to maintain the development because suppliers won’t be willing to supply to insolvency communities.
In your case, I think the problem is being caused by these 8 individual presidents, why you don’t vote them out of office to the extent that they are not able to meet the requirements of their sub-communities
I have to say that although section 24 remains silent each sub-president is only a representative of the owners and her or his duties include: to (1) act on behalf of and be subject to the control of the owners, (2) act within the scope of the powers conferred by the owners which are provided by the law, (3) discharge his or her duties with appropriate care and diligence, (4) avoid conflict between his or her personal interests and those of the owners

Regarding notices calling for a meeting of Macro AGM or EGMs, they may be served to the presidents, likewise, they - not the owners – deal with the accounts of the Macro-Community, but presidents should inform owners of sub-communities of each business transacted in a Macro-meeting.
The legislator approach aims to distinguish powers of the Macro-communities which only includes related with common elements, roads, installations and facilities or services from those of the sub communities
It is also advisable to read an updated copy of the governing documents of the Macro-Association, usually they contain important rules for the running of the community

Section 24 (3) (b) provides:

b) The adoption of resolutions for which the law prescribes qualified majorities shall require, in turn, a prior appropriate majority at the Owners’ Committee of each one of the communities belonging to the association.

That means that resolutions passed by the president’s committee of the macro could be impugned if this requirement is not fulfilled, therefore it is necessary the participation of every owner through his or her sub-community prior the Macro meeting.

Last paragraph of section 24 (3) provides:

Duties of governing bodies of the association shall only cover common elements, roads, installations and facilities or services. Their decisions shall in no event diminish the powers of the governing bodies of the component sub-communities

This subsection shows the separation of the issues correspondent to the whole community of those of the sub communities

[davey]

I don't understand how you could have your sub community meeting before the Community AGM. How could you plan anything financial without an approved budget?

Paula, in our community we have a number of apartments, the General Community President is arrived at from these apartments or villa`s. The community AGM is not just about the budget, but the electing of the General Community President from the apartment /villa Presidents.

But would the subcommunities not be voting / discussing the new proposed budget general community budget etc, etc in their meeting, this would have been sent out with the paperwork from our Administrator?

If the General Community AGM is held 1st this leaves the exsisiting President in place or the community having to hold an EGM a few days later to elect a new president if the exsiting presidents are not re elected at their apartment subcommunity AGM`s?

Also like Felix has mentioned there maybe certain items that are on the General Community AGM, which require a vote in a prior subcommunity AGM.

Thank you to both David and Felix for your information.

Davey