Notary fee division - more evidence of foreigner bias?

[Jool]

I just thought I would let you know that in my research for another matter I have discovered that spanish law actually states that a seller and a buyer should SHARE the Notary costs.

Over my way it has always been that the buyer pays them all but in fact spanish law states that they should be divided and in fact in reality that means a division of around 80% to the seller (rough figure) and 20% to the buyer.......so if you are buying say you want the Notary costs shared "segun la ley", it will save you a few hundred......

I have posted this on here so that David can hopefully confirm this is correct and I have not misunderstood?

[julian]

that´s correct, but what´s it got to do with being bias to foreigners?
even the spanish generally do the "buyer pays the notary" system, the parties can come to any agreement they want to about who pays the notary

if a foreigner sells to a foreigner and the buyers pays the notary, is that also foreign bias??

no le busques tres pies al gato !

[katy]

I wasn't aware of this but having sold to a spaniard who paid the costs it can't be foreigner bias. Probably just custom and practice.

[Bongtrees]

I just thought I would let you know that in my research for another matter I have discovered that spanish law actually states that a seller and a buyer should SHARE the Notary costs.

Over my way it has always been that the buyer pays them all but in fact spanish law states that they should be divided and in fact in reality that means a division of around 80% to the seller (rough figure) and 20% to the buyer.......so if you are buying say you want the Notary costs shared "segun la ley", it will save you a few hundred......
I have posted this on here so that David can hopefully confirm this is correct and I have not misunderstood?

Jool you cannot possibly know what goes on in every transaction ¨over your way¨

If buyers are stupid enough to pay the sellers costs they have only themselves to blame.

All my escrituras mention that the costs are paid segun la ley.

I have never paid anyone elses, in fact a few times I noticed that if the Notary didnt know the seller or myself he asked for a ball park sum to be paid there and then with a refund being sent when the accounts had been prepared.

[Jool]

Bongtrees why so aggressive? You are not even in Andalucia.

When I bought both my properties and every other non spanish person I know plus local general knowledge is that the buyer pays the Notary fees, over here the majority of buyers have been non spanish. When I discovered this I asked around various gestors and Agents and all said buyer pays......so yes I am suspicious, I also know of spanish who paid the Notary fees as buyers but why would any spaniard pay fees that are not theirs to pay out of custom?

[julian]

out of custom the buyer pays (spanish or otherwise)
if there is no other agreement the law states it will be paid as your OP

who do you think organised this conspiracy against the foreigners over payment of notary fees?

[Jool]

I am not paranoid Julian but certainly I was never advised of the choice and nor was anyone I knew or have known in the last 10 years, we all believed it was the law for the buyer to pay the fees, that is my objection. This is why I asked around as well to see if it was just my bad luck etc but no the common consensus (in fact there were no dissenters at all!) was that it is a requirement that the buyer pays, its yet another example of spanish solicitors taking advantage of non spanish clients in not advising them of relevant information to the benefit of the spanish, all of whom presumably know the law and the custom and thus can choose unlike the foreigners?

[julian]

I wonder when and where the spanish solicitors have their secret meetings to organise all this bias?

No doubt you will be paying 80% of the notary fees when you sell you house to a foreigner Jool.

[Bongtrees]

Bongtrees why so aggressive? You are not even in Andalucia.

When I bought both my properties and every other non spanish person I know plus local general knowledge is that the buyer pays the Notary fees, over here the majority of buyers have been non spanish. When I discovered this I asked around various gestors and Agents and all said buyer pays......so yes I am suspicious, I also know of spanish who paid the Notary fees as buyers but why would any spaniard pay fees that are not theirs to pay out of custom?

Jools first you say its an anti-foreigner thing, then you post and say you know Spanish who pay all the buyers fees which completely proves there is no bias.

How can the blame be put at lawyers feet when as far as I know 99% of Spaniards do not use a lawyer for a sale? If that is so are we supposed to believe that lots of lawyers got together more than 10 years ago and all decided to get their clients (the buyer) to pay all the costs?

[julian]

sssshhh the get together was secret

on the subject of bias
have you noticed Jool that the big xmas lottery is never won by a brit, and always by a spaniard ??
how does the machine that throws out the (supposedly) winning number know which numbers were bought by brits?
I personally know many brits who have bought a number and not won.
I´ve sussed it for net time..I´m going to ask a spanish friends to buy a number for me..I won´t go with him to buy it so they don´t mark it down as a brit number..........but what if he is also involved in the conspiracy
maybe I could by one on-line? but then by my name on the credit card they will also know I´m a brit
looks like I won´t by one in case..that´ll show em

[El Cid]

I just thought I would let you know that in my research for another matter I have discovered that spanish law actually states that a seller and a buyer should SHARE the Notary costs.

Over my way it has always been that the buyer pays them all but in fact spanish law states that they should be divided and in fact in reality that means a division of around 80% to the seller (rough figure) and 20% to the buyer.......so if you are buying say you want the Notary costs shared "segun la ley", it will save you a few hundred......

I have posted this on here so that David can hopefully confirm this is correct and I have not misunderstood?

What David Searl says in "You and the law in Spain" is:-

"There is NO Spanish law that one of the parties should pay any particular tax and that the buyer and seller are free to contract whatever terms they choose.

Traditionally the seller has paid the Notary's fees and the Plus Valia tax, as he is the one making the profit and the buyer pays the transfer tax and the registry fee. Spanish consumer regulations state that this should be the normal distribution of costs.

It is frequent practice, however, for the contract to state that the buyer will pay todo los gastos, all the expenses arising. There is nothing illegal about this as the two parties are free to make any contract they choose."

Sid

[Bongtrees]

In Jools OP she mentions the phrase segun la ley, I actually have that written in my escritura and each party paid their own Notary costs.

Just wondering what it actually means.

Could it mean costs must be paid and unless specified in the escritura means both parties are responsible for their own costs?

[julian]

Quién debe pagar la escritura de compraventa?
El artículo 1.455 del Código Civil establece que los gastos de otorgamiento de la escritura de compraventa son de cuenta del vendedor y los gastos de la primera copia de la escritura son de cuenta del comprador. Ello quiere decir que si en la escritura de compraventa (o en el contrato privado previo a la firma de la escritura compraventa) se pacta que los gastos de escritura se satisfagan "según Ley", o bien no se establece ningún pacto sobre este tema, los honorarios del Notario deberá pagarlos el vendedor, salvo el importe de la primera copia autorizada de la escritura de compraventa, que deberá pagarla el comprador.
En cualquier caso, cabe que el vendedor y el comprador establezcan cualquier tipo de pactos o acuerdos acerca del pago de los honorarios del Notario. A falta de pacto expreso, se aplicará en todo caso lo que dispone el citado artículo 1.455 del Código Civil

[Jool]

North europeans employ solicitors to give them legal info and advice on buying property in Spain
Said buyers told by officials they employ they pay the notary fees as buyers so therefore do so

Spanish have choice re using solicitor and know they have a choice re paying the legal fees, some follow the custom, others choose segun la ley (which if you check your Notary bills for those of you who had this on your Notary bill) you will see that in rough % 80% are for seller and 20% for buyer......)

Spanish have info and choice

North Europeans do not......or at least the majority of them do not over in my area anyway but we can always do a forum poll and find out?

In Almeria far more properties were sold to north europeans than spanish in the last decade - was it an even playing field I don´t think so

As for childish posts to amuse themselves by forum members who do not read or take time to consider the point I was making ......

[Bongtrees]

Spanish have info and choice

Brits and other nationalities also have info and choice.......... choice to buy and read David Searls books, countless other books, endless articles in Spanish property magazines etc.

Choice and opportunity to look into the buying process before buying.

Nobody HAS to buy a property.

Caveat Emptor!

[janda_grant2]

Spanish have info and choice

North Europeans do not......or at least the majority of them do not over in my area anyway but we can always do a forum poll and find out?

They do have a choice - just as in other countries they have a choice as to whether or not to use a lawyer/solicitor to buy or sell a house. How many in the UK (sorry but it is a fair comparison) do the conveyancing on a property themsleves, or do they take the easy route and employ a solicitor or conveyancer to do it for them?

What foreign nationals very often don't have is a good command of the language, a thorough understanding of the law and the time and/or commitment to do it themsleves. They do have a choice whether they blindly take someone else's word for something or not. That is the real crux of the matter! As has been said many times before ignorance of something is not a defence!

[Jool]

Until I arrived in Spain I had never met a solicitor who lied.......why should it be caveat emptor when you are employing a solicitor to advise you, its not exactly a bloke you met in a bar is it?

[janda_grant2]

why should it be caveat emptor

Because that applies to EVERYTHING you buy, the onus is ALWAYS on you to make the final decision and it is usually on your head when it goes wrong. Why should buying a property be different? Has no one ever lost money buying houses in property booms, or due to cliff erosion, mining subsidence or earthquakes, all of which could be predicted -solicitor or no solicitor. And I'm sure there are many people who know solicitors who have been disbarred for various reasons. So remember Caveat Emptor!

[julian]

true, no one forces us into buying anything

phrases I hear/see so often is
(when someone has made a profit on property) they say "the house I bought"
(when someone has had problems or lost money on a property deal) it is "the house I was sold"

[Jool]

So Janda, tell me about how you identify a good solicitor in Turkey or Egypt?