Abogados and the Property Scandal

Information and questions about the Law in Spain and Andalucia.
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Wicksey
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Re: Abogados and the Property Scandal

Postby Wicksey » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:37 pm

Bongtrees wrote: Why on earth would anyone trust a Spanish lawyer?
It's so difficult when you're buying here to know who to trust especially when you think of all the illegal permissions given by town halls. If a property had planning permission from the local council offices in normal circumstances you wouldn't doubt it, but here you cannot trust anything. There seems to have been all sorts of dodgy dealings going on in the past and these only come to light when the house is being re-sold.

We have tried to buy a house with a problem with the catastro being incorrect and not showing the division of the original large plot when the house was sold off with a smaller piece of land. The 'agent' said it's only a 'slight problem'. Our assessoria said if it's been rejected for amendment then there's a big problem and don't sign anything and certainly do not pay any money.
Last edited by Wicksey on Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AndaluzCampo
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Re: Abogados and the Property Scandal

Postby AndaluzCampo » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:35 pm

Wicksey, I can only advise you based on our experience, and I would say be very, very cautious about a lawyer pushing you to go ahead with the sale and hold back a retention for x or y. Our abogado did this for us, supposedly until this issue was sorted out to. I wanted assurances that our concerns would be met before completion of purchase, so he organised a retention. We never got the matter sorted out to our satisfaction. After the sale, the developer pushed and pushed for the money and got it in full from our lawyer. This will now cause us time, inconvenience and more expenditure when we come to sell. As well as bad faith and mistrust. Best to try get everything sorted out before the purchase. Afterall, it's a buyers market at the moment.

Jool
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Re: Abogados and the Property Scandal

Postby Jool » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:56 pm

Wicksey - the catastro is often not accurate but in your case this is more serious as the segregation of the land is not correctly done and that is vital for your peace of mind and complete legality of the property you are buying, so I would insist this is done by the seller before you proceed to Notary and get it checked by the Property Registry first as well before signing (ie that they will accept it). Don´t go the retention route. Your asesoria sounds on the ball - if land is not properly segregated and shown as such on title deed and catastrao then you may have a legality problem as well as there are rules about minimum m2 for individual land plots, with or without a house, according to the classification of land. It is the seller´s responsibility to resolve this at their expense, not you, at your cost.......

julian
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Re: Abogados and the Property Scandal

Postby julian » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:29 am

why not make an appointment at the catastro office in malaga, take all the paperwork and ask them if it is sufficient, or what needs to be done,rather than just submitting the paperwork and waiting to see the outcome,that way you will know the same day what the situation is.

if it is all segregated correctly in the property registry it shouldn´t be difficult to correct the catastro maps.

Jool
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Re: Abogados and the Property Scandal

Postby Jool » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:53 am

Julian´s reply has confused me now as I understood that where segregations are concerned the catastro one has to be done first before the plan and licence can be issued which would allow title deeds to be correct so I do think you need to check thoroughly. It seems to me that the simplest thing would be to visit the Caytastral office AND the Property Registry and ask
a) why they would not accept the paperwork before and
b) ask them what needs to be done? With this info then go to the Registry and get their confirmation that they will accept this.

julian
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Re: Abogados and the Property Scandal

Postby julian » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:00 pm

I think you´ll find it´s first the segregation by escritura and then property register, then catastro after by presenting a copy the escritura of segregation.
I don´t see how you could change the catastro first as you would have nothing to present to them.

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Wicksey
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Re: Abogados and the Property Scandal

Postby Wicksey » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:27 pm

The house and land were purchased by the present owners in 2001, I think, on a compraventa, and the escritura is dated 2003. Presumably it took this time to sort out the division of land which seemed to go through the courts according to what was read out to us from the escritura. The original plot was about 11,500m2 and the plot sold with the house is just under 2,700m2. Our asesoria cannot understand why the catastro was not altered straight away after the deeds were registered as this is normal practice, and she believes that, as Jool has suggested, the law has changed and that the catastro now has to be done first.

As Julian says, we cannot understand that if there is an escritura (there'll be 2 in fact, one for each piece of the divided plot won't there?) showing the split between the owners, why can't we get the catastral office to accept this? I am beginning to wonder if there is some kind of moritorium on accepting any changes or additions to campo land and buildings in case this endangers any fines or prosecutions that may occur in the future.

A few other properties have come up for sale in the area recently but when I look at the catastro maps on-line these houses are on plots that have not been separated from the neighbouring house. It has usually occured when the original Spanish-owned cortijo has been sold off to a foreigner and then the Spanish owner has built themselves a new house on the rest of the plot, but it is all still shown as being one plot according to the catastral records. The original cortijo had been sold off some years ago, so presumably this is going to be the same problem that we already have with the house we are currently trying to buy? In these cases the overall plot size is much smaller as well.
Last edited by Wicksey on Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

julian
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Re: Abogados and the Property Scandal

Postby julian » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:33 pm

a word of advice to help you move forward......don´t take any notice of what the catastro maps show as they are nearly always wrong,take notice of the escrituras and the registry, but not the catastro.the catastro has limited legal value, it´s more a way of sending the right bills to people than anything else.

go with her to the catastro to hear exactly what is said.

the last segregation I did was done in this order
segregation licence.....notary/escritura of segregation...registry......catastro..all in that order

if the catastro had to be done first would they just change the plans on your word ? without having anything presented to them? in which case you´ll have it all done and sorted on monday, but I think you´ll find it´s catastro last


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