unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Information and questions about the Law in Spain and Andalucia.
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Icaru
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unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby Icaru » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:00 am

My purse was stolen and the thieves gained access to 2 Spanish bank cards. Unfortunately, inside a folder in my mobile phone, also stolen, were the codes for these two cards. In 11 minutes they had withdrawn €600 from the two cards.

I blocked the cards, filed a police report, got the necessary documentation from each bank showing when and where the withdrawals were made, then returned the final police report to each bank so they could file a claim with Visa.

One of the banks told me that if a thief had access to the pin and was able to make the withdrawal immediately, the loss is not reimbursable to me.

Is this true? There are many ways thieves can gain access to bank card pins, including looking over your shoulder, 'helping' you with a supposedly blocked card, tampering with the ATM machine, etc.

If VISA refuses reimbursement, do I have any recourse? I could not find anything online about this.

Thanks
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peteroldracer
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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby peteroldracer » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:05 am

I should think this is a little bit like you hanging the key outside next to a locked house door - almost a gilt-edged invitation for someone to help themselves. Sometimes the only way one learns a lesson is to be punished.
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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby ajtg1952 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:05 pm

I have to agree with Peter. The banks spend a lot of time and effort warning customers not to write down PIN numbers, no mater how secure the method of noting is.

I have never written down or stored my PIN numbers nor every told any other person, including my wife.

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Icaru
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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby Icaru » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:36 pm

You are right but unfortunately I use these cards only 2 months of the year, the bank assigned the codes, I just got to Spain and after 6 months did not remember them. You can be sure it's 'live and learn' but there are other ways for thieves to get pin numbers. They copy cards, put mirrors above the keypad, tamper with the ATM an so on.

The 4.5 hrs spent in the Marbella national police station was therefore a great waste of time. We also had our tires shot with a pistol twice in 4 months near Barcelona. Another 4 hrs with the Guardia Civil and the culprits whom they caught walked out free.

Reporting a crime where they is no personal violence or forced entry is just a waste of time.
__________________
PS. For all you WUP who like to beat horses and kick dead dogs, you'll be unhappy to know that a friend in Turkey who had his Barclays card stolen this summer -- after the thieves looked over his shoulder and also got his pin -- was reimbursed 800 GBP by Barclays UK. I was able to identify the thief in a police line-up yesterday, if you would like to give me your address I'd be pleased to send him over to you when he is let out on the streets of Marbella again.
Last edited by Icaru on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Martin Page
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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby Martin Page » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:37 pm

There have been recent cases in the UK that have challenged the banks relaince on YOU being responsible for your pin code. In most cases the banks have denied responsibility for the fraud and it was down to you to follow it through. This, I belive , has now been over thrown ! It is now the banks responsibility to protect your money from fraudulent theift. All ATM have CCTVs and take pictures of the users ... and the police have facial recognition software to identify the fraudster. Whats more the banks cover against fraudulent loss
The banks are the only people that have any chance of aprehending the culprits but they choose not to by blaming YOU because its easier and you wont make a fuss.

WRONG - make a fuss. write to the head office , your local councilor, and generally be a pain in the ar..e. to the bank. Its a case that the creaking hinge always get oiled first. The Banks HAVE a duty of CARE - make then apply it ! Make their life difficult ! make then work for YOU ! - You are Their customer remember that ... !

Just keep the bit about the pin number quiet

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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby Bongtrees » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:47 pm

Martin Page wrote:WRONG - make a fuss. write to the head office , your local councilor, and generally be a pain in the ar..e. to the bank. Its a case that the creaking hinge always get oiled first. The Banks HAVE a duty of CARE - make then apply it ! Make their life difficult ! make then work for YOU ! - You are Their customer remember that ... !



Erm.... I think the OP is talking about a Spanish bank card!

I also think its a weekend wind-up.......starts off about stolen bank card , soon turns into knocking life in Spain....had the OP changed the PIN which AFAIK can be dont at any ATM anywhere this would probably have never been a problem. Are we supposed to to believe that the code was listed as a contact under PIN on their mobile.....??
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

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Icaru
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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby Icaru » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:18 pm

Post removed, no longer relevant as the previous nasty posts were deleted by the forum administrator.
Last edited by Icaru on Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DavidSearl
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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby DavidSearl » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:36 pm

FROM DAVID SEARL

FOR ICARU AND MANY OTHER POSTERS

First, to you many other posters. This thread seems to have become unravelled.

For Icaru

The Spanish banks for the past few years have subscribed to a common practice whereby, in cases where the lost or stolen credit card or bank card is used with the PIN number to withdraw money, they will repay all but the first 150 euros of the withdrawals or charges.

The agreement states that use of the PIN number does not necessarily constitute negligence on the part of the cardholder. Card thiefs are now so well organised that, as you say, within a few minutes they can begin withdrawals. So even the most rapid response to cancel the card may not be fast enough.

Nevertheless, the banks have insisted on maintaining the limit at 150 euros, perhaps to keep people from becoming too careless.

None of this is exactly Law but it is a recognised practice. The bank will probably contest this and find excuses not to refund. You may have to mention the common practice to your bank manager and declare your intention to file a protest with the Bank of Spain. Each bank also has a Defensor del Cliente. Ask to contact him.

When the stolen card is used to purchase goods, ask the bank for the receipts from the shops. If these are not available or if they are not signed or if the signature is nothing like your own, you have further evidence to reclaim.

Good luck with it, David Searl
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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby markwilding » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:01 am

Does anybody sign their credit cards with their own signature here in Spain? When I purchase something the salespeople never bother to look at it but prefers to check photo ID,which has given me some fun at the cashdesks of Eroski, because I have signed the reciept with anything from a Cross to Micky Mouse.
My wife has However, told me to grow up.


My understanding about stolen credit cards in Spain was that the banks pay you back any money, lost through fraud, if they are inclinded to do. I don't think there is any law which forces them to. I would take David Searl's advice and see if you can at least get some of it back.

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Icaru
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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby Icaru » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:40 pm

Thanks to David Searl's suggestion, I have recovered from Halifax/Lloyd's bank €150 of the €300 stolen from my account.

Barclay's, on the other hand, have been unwilling to provide me even with the contact information of their Defensor del Cliente. They have said to email Customer Service -- those people of course have never responded either to the Spanish or English letters sent to them. As a matter of principle, I am insisting at least on a response from Barclays.

Thank you David.

PS. Another thanks to David because Barclays has now also agreed to refund €150 of the unauthorized money taken from our account.

Kudos David ! :thumbup:
Last edited by Icaru on Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world. - Socrates

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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby julian » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:44 pm

"As a matter of principle, I am insisting at least on a response from Barclays."

good luck..put it on your list of things to achieve by the end of the year !!

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Martin Page
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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby Martin Page » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:26 pm

...Like thats going to happen ! Barclays have just been fined some £80 Million by the FSA for not dealing with customer complaints. Thats why they are the most profitable bank on the High Street.

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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby julian » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:36 pm

I gave up with barclays as I could never get through their security check when I phoned them for anything !!

it then took me over a year to close my account with them, partly because I could never get to talk to them cos of not getting through the security check !!!! agghhh
closing that account was one of the most challenging paperwork tasks I have ever come across, and I´ve done lots of challenging paperwork here in spain in the last 24 years !!!

they once sent me a letter, to my home, by post, asking me to send them proof of my address :wtf:

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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby gerryh » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:46 pm

julian wrote:I gave up with barclays as I could never get through their security check when I phoned them for anything !!

:wtf:

I know the feeling.
I phoned them, whilst on holiday, to report a possible fraud.
Couldn't get past their security checks. Some of the info they wanted related to my last bank statement.
Told them I don't carry my bank statements with me when I am on holiday.
Had to wait till I got home to report the possible fraud.
My wife closed her account with them before we moved to Spain, nearly 7 years ago.
She still gets bank statements showing she doesn't have any money in her account posted to her here in Spain. :crazy: :crazy:


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Re: unauthorized ATM withdrawals on stolen bank card

Postby julian » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:12 pm

that was part of the problem gerry, to close the account I had to leave it a zero first
I sent them a letter to say
1)to transfer all the funds in the account to an account in morocco
2)to close the account

they sent the money to morocco leaving the account at zero, but then later sent a letter saying they needed more proof of identity that it was really me ordering them to close the account that now had no money in it.....so they trusted that it was me to send away all the money, but didn´t trust that it was me asking them to close an empty account.mindboggling !!!

after sending the money to morocco and leaving the account at zero it then gained about one pound in interests from the past, so it wasn´t at zero again, but they couldn´t then transfer the 1 pound as it would cost more than one pound to transfer it :crazy:
I told the guy to take it for a coffee, but he said he wasn´t allowed to and a coffee cost more than a pound :crazy: but they couldn´t close the account as it now wasn´t at zero !!


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