Modelo 210 - Rental Income

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Estrellita
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Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Estrellita » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:54 pm

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but a search came up empty (at least on the first five pages).

We as non-residents own a property and rent out for vacationers. We need to pay tax on the rental income on a quarterly bases (more on that a bit later). Modelo 210 is the form of choice - type of income 01. So far so good. Filling in that form on the AEAT website is not a big issue either. Creatingthe forms for us is though:

Due to ill advice we assumed we have to pay the tax on rental income on a yearly basis (thank you for that Mr. Lawyer) - so we are overdue. When I now fill in the form and hit send I'll get a message stating something like: Error on page 1 - wrong period.

Not being able to create the forms we have issues to turn in our tax returns. Anyone know a solution on this issue? A gestor we contacted charges like 300€ per quarter - which would make the idea of renting out a foregone thought.

Second question: Which expenses are deductible from rental income? Depreciation of the house/furniture? Is there a comprehensive list or even instructions on how to split them over the year/rental periods?

Thanks for any advice!

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Beachcomber » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:13 pm

I don't know where to start with this answer if, indeed, it can be considered to be an answer.

It does now seem as though late returns for quarterly rental income can no longer be made. There are three possible solutions to this :

1- Just submit a non-resident return on imputed tax for the whole year and start from scratch next year with paying tax on income in the due time each quarter.
2- Pay the entire year's tax on actual income in the fourth quarter of this year.
3- Contact the AEAT helpline and ask for their advice.

If you do that you could also ask them about the expenses that can be claimed. The matter is entirely subjective and as it is a self declaration you can claim whatever expenses you wish but you must be able to justify them if AEAT inspects your returns.

From my understanding it is only possible to claim expenses like the cost of electricity and water and receipted repairs and only then if you are tax resident in an EU member state and can produce a certificate of fiscal domicile from the tax authority of that country. Depreciation of the property and mortgage repayments etc do not seem to be included. There is no definitive list of what can or cannot be claimed and if you ask at the tax office on two different days you are likely to receive two different answers (even from the same person).

One thing that is certain is that non-resident property owners domiciled in the UK will not be able to claim any expenses once it leaves the European Union and the tax rate will increase from 19% to 24% or whatever the prevailing rates are at that time.

The whole thing seems to be in total disarray. At one point the supervisor in charge of non-resident tax in Málaga tax office insisted that a separate return must be submitted in respect of each person staying in the property. When it was pointed out that some properties can accommodate up to ten people and if it was fully rented on a weekly basis during a whole quarter that would mean submitting 130 tax returns he relented and said that the return could be made in the name of the 'leader of the group'. He also stated at one point that they must obtain NIE numbers! You need a NIE number just to go on holiday??? You can't get much more ridiculous than that.

I don't think anyone really knows. I certainly don't and I am certainly not going to pretend I do unlike people on some other websites.

If you do end up seeking advice from AEAT I would be interested to know what you are told.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby esteponaman » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:31 pm

I think that it would be better to use a Gestor. At least one with a reasonable cost.
I think they normally range form 60 to 75 per quarter plus IVA. Is it possible that the quoted fee of 300 was for a year instead of per quarter?

In my case , depreciation of the building is allowed. 3% of the construction cost and I think that covers the fixtures & fittings etc. .
Also allowable expenses such as repairs & renewals need to have invoices with the taxpayers name & the address of the rented property.
The gestors' fee is also allowable.
The imputed rental income tax is due only on the number days that the property was not rented out.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Beachcomber » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:55 pm

You will still only get one person's interpretation of the rules and they will generally accept no responsibility if they get it wrong as other ADC members have discovered to their cost. I would rather be responsible for any mistakes I make rather than pay someone else to make them.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Estrellita » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:31 pm

ok, finally found some help at an online gestoria which charges 29€ a quarter.
Here's what I figured out from a combination of the aforementioned real world gestor and this online office:

Deductible is everything directly related to the rentals - but only if you are a tax resident of another EU country. There is no comprehensive list.
So I deducted all the cost incurred for power, water, fees for the property management, IBI, tasa basura, insurance, advertisements, repairs & maintenace etc. - albeit on a prorated basis to be on the safe side.
Claiming depreciation obviously is possible, at a rate of 3% annually for the construction, 10% for furniture and fixed equipment like aircons, and 33,3% for "tools" (which I interpreted as towels and the like).

For late returns they charge you a 5% extra (of the tax payable) if you declare with three months, 10% within 6 months, 15% within a year. Obviously they'll send you an invoice once they checked the tax returns. I'll eagerly wait for that one.

I'll keep you updated on the responses I'll receive from AEAT.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby SteveMar » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:14 am

Apologies for tagging on to this thread, but I have some relevant questions about the modelo 210 I was hoping someone might be able to advise me about.

I recently completed a 210 form for 2016 Q4 rental income on a newly let holiday property. This was only my second 210 and the first completed myself as a notary did the Q3 form. I am a UK resident with my main home in the UK.
I had various problems completing the form:

1. The form would generate an error message stating that the NIE number could not be the same for 'Taxpayer' section and the 'Payer' section. It also would not allow me to leave Payer field blank. But from reading the guidance notes and bits and pieces I could find online, I thought that I am both the 'Taxpayer' and the 'Payer'. If not, then whose details did I need to enter in the 'Payer' field?
In the end I got so fed up that I simply copied what the notary had entered in the Payer section on the Q3 form, which were strings of 010s and letters:
NIE - 010101010
Surname and first name - KHU H UOUYU
I have no idea what they refer to but assume they are a bank code of some sort?

2. When I selected 'To deposit' for the type of tax return at bottom of the form, I wasn't able to type in the digits for my IBAN number. It would only allow me to enter the initial letters ES. Do I need to fill this in if I am paying at my Spanish bank? If so, how do I do it?

3. After clicking 'Validate and save pdf', do you print it off and take it to your bank...that's it? You don't need to send it to the hacienda or do anything else? At the branch of Sabadell I went to in Madrid they seemed to know very little about the form, but still stamped it and made the payment for me. This was despite the fact that I had copied the Payer details from my Q3 form and realising afterwards that I hadn't signed the form before presenting it at the bank!

Any help would be much appreciated as although I have paid the tax for Q4 (in time as well), I am now quite worried about the form being incorrect and whether I need to do something else still or contact AEAT? :?

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Beachcomber » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:33 am

This is one of the problems that has not been resolved. I believe the tax payer under the section 'Pagador/Retenedor/Emisor/Adquirente del inmueble' is the person who paid the rental money to you but this would mean he would have to have a NIE number. This would mean that everyone coming to Spain to stay in privately rented accommodation would require a NIE number. The way the NIE number and Taxpayer is entered on your previous form is obviously designed to override this requirement. The is also the unresolved question of whether a separate form should be submitted in respect of each individual rental. I believe this to be the case as I was told this by the head of the non-resident section at the AEAT office in Málaga but others state that it is sufficient to submit a collective return at the end of each quarter.

You do not need to enter ES as part of the IBAN number because it is already there at the beginning of the field The first two digits you enter are the ones that follow ES. You only need to enter this if you are paying from your bank account. If you pay in cash there is no need to enter the IBAN.

Yes, you just print it off and take it to the bank. It doesn't matter that you did not sign the form. It doesn't go to AEAT anyway. The form is electronically generated in the AEAT system when you click on validate and validated again internally when the payment is made.

You should consider obtaining a digital signature or Cl@ve Pin then you could submit the form online and check your record of submissions on the AEAT web site.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby SteveMar » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:01 am

Thanks very much for your response Beachcomber

I have just opened up a new 210 form to check something and it seems to have been updated since I did the return at the beginning of January. There doesn't seem to be a Payer section any more, or a section for entering your property address (although you are still able to enter the address under the Taxpayer's Representative section). Is it just me being stupid or has the form really been changed?

By the way, when I went to pay at the bank I just handed over the form at the counter and the clerk carried out the payment from my account. I didnt actually hand over the cash. Does that count as a cash payment?

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Beachcomber » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:20 am

The only change to the form is the way in which it works. It no longer depends on Java but everything is still there. Don't forget that you must select Option 1 from Box 02 (Tipo de Renta) for the payment of tax on actual income and Option 2 for imputed tax for the days when the property was not rented out. If you don't the section for the address of the property etc will not appear.

You paid from your bank account so that does not count as a cash transaction but the bank clerk will will have entered the correct bank account details into his computer. I am sure the fact that you did not enter the bank details on the form will not cause you any problems.

As I said in my last post, you really should consider obtaining a digital signature or a Cl@ve Pin. You can still make your payments at the bank if you wish but you will have direct access to your record of submitted tax returns obviating the worry of whether the tax has been paid or not.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Enrique » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:00 am

Hi SteveMar,

" I am sure the fact that you did not enter the bank details on the form will not cause you any problems"

That's the way I pay my Form 210...........we have a "Book" account so the transaction is recorded there . Make sure that your copy of the Form 210 is Stamped by the bank and you can read it.


Sounds like the "Java" free Form is the going to be the one now............. :D

Would also recommend getting a Digital Signature and/or CL@ve
As they seem to be going over to CL@ve and you can access most of the stuff via this method....probably just need this one.........

http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.in ... _PIN.shtml
UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby SteveMar » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:08 pm

Thanks for putting my mind at rest about the submitted form.

Sorry you are right of course - I had a moment of madness when I opened up the form to have a look again yesterday. When you select 01 para tipo de renta, the Payer and Address sections appear as you said.

But that brings me back to the same question: what should I populate the 'Pagador/Retenedor/Emisor/Adquirente del inmueble' section with in order to validate the form? If this should be the guest details as you say, then I cannot proceed without their NIE/NIF (which the majority of guests won't have). Should I continue copying in the codes from my Q3 form despite not knowing what they refer to?

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby SteveMar » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:08 pm

By the way I do have a digital certificate which does seem to be successfully installed. I can access the 210 form on the AEAT website that requires a digital signature (where you have the padlock icon). But I had problems with the payment stage; which I think is to do with my bank account being opened with my passport number instead of my NIE. So the bank does not have my NIE on file and when I try to make the payment there is no match with my NIE number on the form.
But that's another story altogether! I am in the process of trying to put it right via the gestoria at the Torremolinos branch.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Beachcomber » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:40 pm

Do you mean you have accessed your own submitted 210 form or the one you have to complete.

Just to clarify, you can access your submitted tax declarations by using your digital certificate and completing the fields in this link:

https://www1.agenciatributaria.gob.es/e ... cn00c.html

or this one:

https://www1.agenciatributaria.gob.es/e ... 210ci.html

You are probably right in that you are unable to submit your return with your digital certificate because of a discrepancy in your bank account ID.

Regarding the 'pagador/retenedor' I am afraid I have no answer to that question and neither, it seems, does anyone else. If you have a reasonably proficient command of the language you could try calling the AEAT helpline on 901 335533 and see if you can get an intelligible response rather than the singularly unhelpful one that I got which was that 'this must be completed with the name and NIE number of the person paying the tax to you'. Unfortunately these people are not tax officials and seem to just read out what it says on their computer without the capacity to enter into any discussion about it.

Additionally, I am fairly certain that you are supposed to complete a separate tax return in respect of each individual letting and submit them collectively at the end of each quarter and that, as with the imputed tax, if the property is jointly owned you must complete a separate tax return in in respect of each joint owner.

If you do ring the helpline perhaps you could ask about this as well.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby bmpoleary » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:25 pm

Help

This is driving me mad. I am trying to submit my rental income for quarter 4 of 2016 for the first time. I am getting a single error.

I am selecting Quarter 4 as the period. I cant be wrong. I am selecting the Accural year as 2016 and the Accural date as 31122016

You would think it would be straight forward but it is throwing the error

Error in Accrual. Period.

Any help is much appreciated

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Beachcomber » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:59 pm

I am sure we have discussed this problem before but I cannot find the thread. I think it will work if you tick the 'Agrupación' box or leave the 'Fecha de Devengo' blank.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby SteveMar » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:50 pm

Hi bmpoleary

I'm sure beachcomber or others of experience with the 210 will correct me if I'm wrong, but for 'period' I believe you need to put "0A" and then year is 2016 obviously. Your accrual date is correct.

When a notary did my return for Q3 of 2016 she entered 0A for period so I believe that is the correct code regardless of which quarter of the year you are doing a return for. I know it's not logical but this is the Spanish tax system we are talking about!
Last edited by SteveMar on Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby SteveMar » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:00 pm

Beachcomber wrote:Do you mean you have accessed your own submitted 210 form or the one you have to complete.


I meant that I opened a fresh form for completing. Not one I have already submitted. Thanks for the link to viewing my own submissions that's very useful. I didn't know you could do that.

I wonder if the form would validate if I entered one of the passport numbers of my guests from the relevant quarter in the NIF/NIE number field for Pagador?

When you submit a form using your digital signature does it allow you to proceed if you leave the Pagador blank? I'm just wondering what others are putting in the Pagador field in order to proceed with validation. Shall I just continue to enter the "010101 etc" as I posted above for future returns - even though I don't know what it refers to?

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby SteveMar » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:09 pm

Beachcomber wrote: you could try calling the AEAT helpline on 901 335533 and see if you can get an intelligible response rather than the singularly unhelpful one that I got which was that 'this must be completed with the name and NIE number of the person paying the tax to you'.

Additionally, I am fairly certain that you are supposed to complete a separate tax return in respect of each individual letting and submit them collectively at the end of each quarter.


My wife is Spanish so I could try and get her to call them. Although by the sounds of your experience with the AEAT I think it is unlikely to yield answers of any real use. I will speak to her. The idea of submitting a collection of 210 forms for all guests at end of each quarter is crazy. I think I'd spend all my time in the 3 months inbetween each return typing up forms! Nightmare!

I sincerely hope that the single return at the end of each quarter is acceptable.

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby SteveMar » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:15 pm

Enrique wrote:That's the way I pay my Form 210...........we have a "Book" account so the transaction is recorded there . Make sure that your copy of the Form 210 is Stamped by the bank and you can read it.


Hi Enrique, many thanks for your advice. I did at least get a stamp at the bank so hopefully the form is ok. The bit I was worried about mainly was what I put in the Pagador or Payer section (see my post above). Do you mind me asking what you put in that section in order to validate the form?

Can you explain what you mean by a "Book" account pls? Do you mean you keep a physical written record of the returns?

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Re: Modelo 210 - Rental Income

Postby Beachcomber » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:06 pm

Enrique will confirm but I don't think he rents out his property so he only completes a return on imputed tax.

I am sure 0A is only used when delaring imputed income tax and capital gains tax:

Fecha de devengo: Cuando esta autoliquidación se utilice para declarar rentas imputadas de bienes inmuebles urbanos, rentas derivadas de transmisiones de bienes inmuebles o cualquier otra renta de forma separada consigne la fecha de devengo de la renta declarada, en formato "día/mes/año". En estos supuestos, además, en el recuadro "periodo/año", se indicará "0A" y el
ejercicio al que corresponde la fecha de devengo.


Don't rely on the English version of the instructions because it does not say the same thing!

If you enter 1T, 2T 3T or 4T in that box then the accrual date would be superfluous as it is self evident from which quarter is being declared. I have never been able to get to the bottom of this nor the question of how you enter a person without a NIE number as the pagador. I don't think a passport number will work. I hope your wife has better luck than I did. Ask her to see if she can also confirm whether individual returns have to be completed for each letting or if a quarterly collective one is acceptable. I know that the person I spoke to in Málaga was adamant that it was individual returns for each letting.

Was it actually a notary who completed your declaration previously or was it possibly a notary's clerk or gestor?

I don't know about submitting the form with a digital signature as I declare annual tax as a resident and none of the people I help with their non-resident tax has a digital signature and neither do they rent out their properties. I do know that the form will not validate if you do not enter a pagador with a NIE number when submitting a capital gains tax declaration.


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