Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Information and questions about the Law in Spain and Andalucia.
Miro
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Miro » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:49 am

Enrique wrote:The Green Form has your name , address , NIE and Parents names on it. So when purchasing a vehicle they will have NIE tied up with an address.
We file Non-Resident Form 210 annually and that is it........You will have an entry on AEAT DB and can track your payments with a Digital Signature or CL@ve PIN, you can register with DGT.....


Well, the moment you get an NIE, you are on the AEAT database - it's a tax identification number. Can you get an NIE without an address in Spain? So, again, I wonder why to buy a car you would need anything more than your NIE - especially the green form, which basically proves nothing?

El Cid wrote:If your existing home is in Spain, you get the same deal if you reinvest in the UK.


Sorry to keep going on about this, but so far I've failed to get any real confirmation of this. I've spoken to Ernst & Young (who want 2.5k to give advice), I've spoken to Ábaco, who couldn't really answer my question, I've contacted Blevins, who've neglected to get back to me....I'm at my wit's end on exactly how I should file, what type of return I should file and when, in order to ensure that I get the exemption I know I'm entitled to. Really frustrating. :x
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elusive
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby elusive » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:09 am

Miro have you contacted citizens advice to ask them.

Re the NIE you dont need a spanish address other than putting "something"on the application form.we put the holiday let we were staying in when i first got mine before moving over full time months later.you need the padron for buying a car for paying car tax

El Cid
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby El Cid » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:13 pm

Miro, In Blevins Franks book, it clearly states that you can reinvest in the UK.

All you need to do is declare the sale on your tax return and (I think) tick a box that says you intend to reinvest the money.

You then do nothing until you have bought the new house and you declare that.

Of course, by then you will be no longer tax resident so I assume you either don't bother with a declaration or just put one in with the basic details.

Sid

Miro
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Miro » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:30 pm

Yes, there's plenty of sources to confirm that reinvesting in the UK is acceptable (even though my own gestor refuses to agree). I may contact Citizens Advice (thanks elusive for the suggestion). Their site also confirms it: https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/faq/w ... -property/
The problem is, strictly speaking we won't be fiscal residents this year as we'll be leaving before 183 days have elapsed. I feel we should therefore file a non-resident 210. There's clear information on exemptions from CGT for sale of principal residence here http://www.agenciatributaria.es/static_ ... _en_gb.pdf on page 7, but all the people I've spoken to say that if we file as non-residents, we won't be eligible for any exemption, and furthermore, we should instruct the buyer to hold back 3% retention. Not gonna do that! If we file an IRPF next year though, we'll have to also declare all our income and pay tax again on that here. Also, we will have bought a property "overseas", so theoretically we'd need to do a new 720 - and what, pay imputed income on a second property? I don't think simply not declaring the sale & subsequent purchase is a risk worth taking, so I think this is our only option, and we'll just pretend we were still here beyond 183 days - and also, won't notify HMRC we're back until 2018.
I just wish someone in the know could tell us, no, file a 210 declaring the sale of a principal residence and our intent to reinvest the funds (in the UK) and that will be sufficient.
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby El Cid » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:31 pm

Miro, just ask yourself what a Spaniard would do under the same circumstances and then just do that.

Sid

Miro
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Miro » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:37 pm

:D
Very good answer!
However, I'm not Spanish, and there are some things I just can't change. In 20 odd years of doing my best to assimilate, I still can't bring myself to park on roundabouts or pedestrian crossings, for example. :lol:
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

"Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative," Mordecai Siegal 1935-2010.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby elusive » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:24 pm

In 20 odd years of doing my best to assimilate, I still can't bring myself to park on roundabouts or pedestrian crossings, for example.
----------------------

:lol: im still at the stage of "quick quick get out"when i stop on the road even when theres no car in sight. You need at least ten cars behind you and several beeps of the horn and a lifes story being told before the locals move.

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peteroldracer
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby peteroldracer » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:31 am

"you can get a certificate from Hacienda, but as you found, it isn't easy!"
Once Beachcomber had pointed me in the right direction with the link it took one click to download and print it from the Aemet site....
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Enrique
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Enrique » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:19 am

Hi Peter,

Slight correction........... Aemet is the Spanish weather site...................

http://www.aemet.es/es/portada

Aeat is the Tax site................

http://www.agenciatributaria.es/

Trust you're still enjoying your "new area"................... 8)
UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity.

Miro
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Miro » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:08 am

Miro wrote:I just wish someone in the know could tell us, no, file a 210 declaring the sale of a principal residence and our intent to reinvest the funds (in the UK) and that will be sufficient.


I have now had a detailed and very helpful reply from someone at Blevins Franks' London office, and they have confirmed that yes, we can sell as non-residents (since we will not have been in Spain more than 183 days this year) and that although this will mean 3% retention at the notary, we can claim this back as soon as we reinvest the proceeds in a house in the UK, by filing a 210 non-res declaration. For anyone who's interested, here's the official source (i.e. what I've been looking for but couldn't find!): http://www.agenciatributaria.es/static_ ... Q_GF07.pdf

The worse case scenario if we do it this way is that we will lose 3% - but I'm now much more confident that we will be able to get it back. The up side of selling as non-residents, though, is that we won't have to pay the plus valia (see separate post on that subject), we won't have to file a 720 next year (for new overseas assets when we transfer the sale money to the UK and buy a house there in 2017) and we won't have to file IRPFs for 2017, saving ourselves a couple of grand in Spanish income tax as well. So even if we don't get the 3% back, we'll probably be better off, and we'll be well and truly OUT of Hacienda's grasp! I've yet to triple check my calculations, but I think this is the way to go.
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patricia
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby patricia » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:26 am

What about capital gains Miro. As non residents will you be liable for that!
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Miro
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Miro » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:32 am

No, we won't, because the property in Spain was (will have been?!) our primary residence, and we're reinvesting the funds in a new primary residence. It's all explained in the link that I provided.
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby patricia » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:58 am

That´s good :thumbup:
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Miro
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Miro » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:58 pm

Same person, different day - different answer. The reason I contacted Blevins Franks (& others) about the issue of residency v non-residency and whether or not you can claim exemption from CGT when selling your formerly principal residence, but now as a non-resident, was because my own gestor of many years was adamant that you cannot. Armed with documentary evidence that you can, I spoke to him again today, and even before I presented my evidence he said that yes, you can!

So the next question was twofold: which would be the most beneficial to us, and can we choose anyway? Earlier on this thread I said:

"My take on it is that...fiscal residency is not an "option" for anyone - you either are or you're not. Of course, you can choose to arrange your life in a way so as to not become fiscally resident in Spain, but other than that, it's not really an optional thing"

Well, it seems that in our current situation, we can pretty much decide ourselves. We already have fiscal residency certificates (although all that proves really is that we filed a tax return for 2015) so we can sell as residents and avoid the 3% retention. But this would mean filing IRPFs again next year and paying the resultant tax. According to our gestor (today, anyway) we would not have to file 720s next year, because although we would be fiscal residents for all of 2017, we wouldn't be physically resident on December 31st 2017, so would not have to declare our overseas assets as of that date. Mmmm.....Also, as residents, even though our buyer agreed in the private contract to pay the plus valia, she could argue that we must pay it, as by law it always applies to the seller. If she simply doesn't pay it, our town hall may try to track us down and squeeze us for it.
On the other hand, since we will be leaving Spain before June 30th, we can also claim to be non-residents for 2017 if we want to. In this case, the 3% retention will be held back, but I'm now even more confident that we'll get it back once we reinvest the sale proceeds in a new primary residence in the UK. Modelo 210 actually has an option exactly for this purpose (income type 34), so I no longer have any doubts about this. Doing it this way will mean no IRPF next year (and no tax to pay in the UK either as we will both earn below the UK allowances), definitely no question about filing 720s, and if the buyer doesn't pay the plus valia, the town hall will take the easier option and go after her rather than non-resident sellers. We rather like the "clean break" with the Spanish authorities this option will give us also. Apparently we can go to Hacienda any time before the end of June and present 030s to change our "domicilio" to a UK address, and that will be it - OUT of the system for good, hopefully!

Apologies to anyone who's bored with my ramblings (you don't have to read them!) and thanks to anyone who is following them and adding their thoughts and ideas. A.com is proving quite therapeutic and cathartic for me lately :thumbup:
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

"Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative," Mordecai Siegal 1935-2010.

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patricia
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby patricia » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:38 pm

No carry on I am enjoying them and picking up tips. It does just show you though that some Gestors do not know what they are talking about which is a bit worrying! :problem:

Well I have to say A.Com is fabulous if you have a problem there is always someone to help or point you in the right direction. :thumbup:
Torrox Costa "El mejor clima de Europa"

elusive
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby elusive » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:42 pm

Yes do carry on miro. Im enjoying reading all your updates

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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Free at Last » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:33 pm

El Cid wrote:I was asking Elusive. Yes, you can get a certificate from Hacienda, but as you found, it isn't easy!



Sid


I've just had to obtain a Certificado de Residencia Fiscal en España as I've sold my house and didn't want to be subject to the 3% retention for CGT liability. I went to the Hacienda office in Vélez-Málaga on Wednesday 19 April, where they gave me a form to complete (very simple, a single A4 sheet) and explained that they would need to scan it and send it through to the Málaga office, who would issue the certificate which would be sent to my home address. They said it should take around 7 days but if I didn't receive it by today I should go back to the Vélez office. As it didn't arrive yesterday I did go back to the office this morning and the lady at the Registro desk looked it up on the system then called one of her colleagues over and asked him to attend to me, he printed off a copy of the certificate and handed it over with a smile, so they were really helpful. The delay in receiving it is no doubt down to Correos.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Wicksey » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:42 pm

Do you always have to get a certificate to show you are fiscal resident now? I know it was some time ago, but we just needed to show our latest tax return to the Notary in order for the 3% retention to be avoided. Mind you, our assessoria does have a good relationship with the local Notary, and seems to have a way of getting things done that we have been told by others cannot be done.

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peteroldracer
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby peteroldracer » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:01 pm

If you have a Clave or Digital Certificate you can download and print a certificate straight away from the Tax website...
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Re: Capital Gains Tax & Residency

Postby Free at Last » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:05 pm

Wicksey wrote:Do you always have to get a certificate to show you are fiscal resident now? I know it was some time ago, but we just needed to show our latest tax return to the Notary in order for the 3% retention to be avoided. Mind you, our assessoria does have a good relationship with the local Notary, and seems to have a way of getting things done that we have been told by others cannot be done.


It was stipulated in the compraventa that the 3% would be withheld if I didn't supply a certificate of fiscal residency, so I thought it best to get one!


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