Britain referendum now

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Mowser
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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Mowser » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:16 pm

Devils Advocate wrote:Mowser, I know you and others hate to admit it or recognise it but Britain is one of the big boys :?

... when they are hanging onto America's coat tails... viz Iraq.
We used to be a world power. Sadly no longer.
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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Devils Advocate » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:20 pm

No, just a member of the G7, a stand alone nuclear power and a health and benefit system (although abused) envied by many countries, I won't mention the technical stuff that we lead other nations by light years in.

I'll tell you something which I'm certain of too.............if Britain wasn't great then all of the gnomes and rule makers in Euroland would be wearing cossack hats by now.
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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby peteroldracer » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:30 pm

frank wrote: we´d simply be cutting off our noses to spite our faces if we did stop manufacturing

Real moral dilemma - along with bribery and corruption (do we prosecute companies like BAE for dealing with crooked Arab states in the only way they will get business?)
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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Devils Advocate » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:39 pm

I think that question has been raised about arms sales since before the gun was invented.
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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby katy » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:12 pm

JAWG wrote:
katy wrote:
Just imagine what a rich country the UK would be if they only sent about a dozen troops there like the rest of Nato countries


Katy. I suggest you check your figures. Canada had +/- 3,000 troops in Afghanistan. As usual, Canada gets no credit for its actions. (And they were in action.)


Was a bit tongue in the cheek Jawg when I said a dozen, although some of the EU countries have only sent a token bunch :)

If we don't sell arms the Frenchies will be happy to step in, it is a very competetive industry. It's ok having idealistic views about the ethic of selling them when you are a 18 yr old student.

Europe is useless when it comes to sorting out it's own back yard. We saw that in WW2 and recently in Serbia. Were it not for the UK and the US Moscow would have taken over West Germany. They are nearly as stab in the backs as the arabs.

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby hiker » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:42 pm

Hopefully the referendum wont be too divisive.

Some countrys have a long tradition of them, like the Swiss.
In others, like Germany, they are forbidden by law.

I'm not a big fan of referendum for complex issues. For the simple issues they are good but for multifaceted issues they are a bit of a blunt tool.
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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Free at Last » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:49 am

frank wrote:
olive wrote:It doesn't make it any the less sordid.

We can get emotive, dealing in death etc, but we´d simply be cutting off our noses to spite our faces if we did stop manufacturing. It´s a great thought, we stop manufacturing arms and everyone else stops and the world´s a much better place, but that´s never going to happen. Unfortunately, hundreds of countries want arms, and they don´t really care where they come from, just so long as they get them.


I wonder if anyone has ever done a study to compare the amount of profit made by selling arms to certain countries against the money we later spend on going to war with them when it is felt to be politically expedient at a later date - as happened with both Saddam Hussein and Col Gaddafi? If they did, the economic argument for the arms trade might not be so clear cut.

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby markwilding » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:33 pm

hiker wrote:Hopefully the referendum wont be too divisive.

There's no referendom, nor does there need to be.

Cameron opted out, so no change in any power being given to the EU, so no referendum.

All this talk of one is wishful thinking

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby frank » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:05 pm

markwilding wrote:
hiker wrote:Hopefully the referendum wont be too divisive.

There's no referendom, nor does there need to be.
Cameron opted out, so no change in any power being given to the EU, so no referendum.
All this talk of one is wishful thinking

I agree, there is no chance of one at the moment, however the French amongst others, are threatening all sorts of reprisals and they are not alone this week in suggesting our rebate should be stopped. As a Tory MP said on Newsnight, if any of these threats are implemented, then there is a real chance that they´ll be left with no option but to hold a referendum.
I wish I could adequately convey the intensity of the anti-British feeling in the European Parliament. In today's debate on last week's Brussels summit, speaker after speaker rose to denounce our entire nation as selfish, narrow-minded and arrogant. These were not speeches from backbenchers: they came from the spokesmen of the big three parties which, among them, account for three quarters of all MEPs.
Some spoke vaguely but menacingly of retribution, of making us feel the consequences of our isolation. Others were more specific. Joseph Daul, the Alsatian leader of the EPP, gave us a timely reminder of why David Cameron was right to pull out of that bloc with his demand that, simply as a first step, the UK rebate be removed.
Regards, Frank

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Mowser » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:54 pm

olive
I am already sick of Salmonds divisive talk.

The good people at The Times obviously ignored you.
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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby White Horse » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:45 pm

I'm not frightened of women in skirts with a sword - especially as it is one of the worst animated GIFs I've ever seen! :lol: :lol: :lolno:

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Spud » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:29 am

I am not into politics but the way I see it is that there are 27 countries in the EU and 17 in the Eurozone. Can someone tell me why it is always the Germans and the French who make the decisions. Surely the EU is becoming another dictatorship run by them. I for one am glad that David Cameron said No I just wish he would stop paying the EU vast amounts of money and spend it on the Britiah people instead. The world is a big place and if the EU decide to stop trading with us I am sure Britain would survive. Cameron should be ploughing money into industry and businesses in the UK not the EU. With any luck he might to increase my poor pension but I wont hold my breath.

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby markwilding » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:38 pm

You sort of contradict yourself. If it is always the Germans and the French who make the decisions and it's becoming a dictatorship run by them, then how come David Cameron was able to opt out?

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Sandramay » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:14 pm

I thought some of you might be interested in this article that was forwarde to me.......

> WOW, the following article is perhaps a little heavy for New Year, it
> does however make for good reading, plus one can only hope that it has
> been read by the person it was aimed at.
>
>
> This is an excellent article by Frederick Forsyth and published in the
> Daily Express, Tuesday 13th December 2011. Lets hope she reads it ...
>
>
> Dear Madame Chancellor,
>
>
>
> PERMIT me to begin this letter with a brief description of my knowledge
> of, and affection for, your country.
>
>
>
> I first came to Germany as a boy student aged 13 in 1952, two years
> before you were born. After three extended vacations with German
> families who spoke no English I found at the age of 16 and to my
> pleasure that I could pass for German among Germans.
>
> In my 20s I was posted as a foreign correspondent to East Germany in
> 1963, when you would have been a schoolgirl just north of East Berlin
> where I lived.
>
> I know Germany , Frau Merkel, from the alleys of Hamburg to the spires
> of Dresden , from the Rhine to the Oder, from the bleak Baltic coast to
> the snows of the Bavarian Alps . I say this only to show you that I am
> neither ignoramus nor enemy.
>
> I also had occasion in those years to visit the many thousands of my
> countrymen who held the line of the Elbe against 50,000 Soviet main
> battle tanks and thus kept Germany free to recover, modernise and
> prosper at no defence cost to herself.
>
> And from inside the Cold War I saw our decades of effort to defeat the
> Soviet empire and set your East Germany free.
>
> I was therefore disappointed last Friday to see you take the part of a
> small and vindictive Frenchman in what can only be seen as a targeted
> attack on the land of my fathers.
>
> We both know that every country has at least one aspect of its society
> or economy that is so crucial, so vital that it simply cannot be
> conceded.
>
> For Germany it is surely your automotive sector, your car industry.
>
> Any foreign-sourced measure to target German cars and render them
> unsaleable would have to be opposed to vetopoint by a German chancellor.
>
> For France it is the agricultural sector. For more than 50 years members
> of the EU have been taxed under the terms of the Common Agricultural
> Policy in order to subsidise France ’s agriculture. Indeed, the CAP has
> been the cornerstone of every EU budget since the first day.
>
> Attack it and France fights back.
>
> For us the crucial corner of our economy is the financial services
> industry. Although parts of it exist all over the country it is
> concentrated in that part of London known even internationally as “the
> City”.
>
> It is not just a few greedy bankers; we both have those but the City is
> far more. It is indeed a vast banking agglomeration of more banks than
> anywhere else in the world.
> But that is the tip of the iceberg. Also in the City is the world’s
> greatest concentration of insurance companies.
>
> Add to that the brokers; traders in stocks and shares worldwide, second
> only, and then maybe not, to Wall Street. But it is not just stocks.
>
> The City is also home to the “exchanges” of gold and precious metals,
> diamonds, base metals, commodities, futures, derivatives, coffee, cocoa…
> the list goes on and on.
>
> And it does not yet touch upon shipping, aviation, fuels, energy,
> textiles… enough. Suffice to say the City is the biggest and busiest
> marketplace in the world.
>
> It makes the Paris Bourse look like a parish council set against the
> United Nations and even dwarfs your Frankfurt many times.
>
> That, surely, is the point of what happened in Brussels . The French
> wish to wreck it and you seem to have agreed. Its contribution to the
> British economy is not simply useful nor even merely valuable.
>
> It is absolutely crucial. The financial services industry contributes 10
> per cent of our Gross Domestic Product and 17.5 per cent of our taxation
> revenue.
>
> A direct and targeted attack on the City is an attack on my country. But
> that, although devised in Paris , is what you have chosen to support.
>
> You seem to have decided that Britain is once again Germany ’s enemy, a
> situation that has not existed since 1945.
>
> I deeply regret this but the choice was yours and entirely yours. The
> Transaction Tax or Tobin Tax you reserve the right to impose would not
> even generate money for Brussels .
>
> It would simply lead to massive emigration from London to other havens.
> Long ago it was necessary to live in a city to trade in it.
>
> In the days when deals can flash across the world in a nanosecond all a
> major brokerage needs is a suite of rooms, computers, telephones and the
> talent of the young people barking offers and agreements down the phone.
>
> Such a suite of rooms could be in Berne, Thun, Zurich or even Singapore
> . Under your Tobin Tax tens of thousands would leave London .
>
> This would not help Brussels , it would simply help destroy the British
> economy.
>
> Your conference did not even save the euro. Permit me a few home truths
> about it. The euro is a Franco-German construct.
>
> It was a German chancellor (Kohl) who ordered a German banker (Karl Otto
> Pohl) to get together with a French civil servant (Delors) on the orders
> of a French president (Mitterrand) and create a common currency.
>
> Which they did. IT was a flawed construct. Like a ship with a twisted
> hull it might float in calm water but if it ever hit a force eight it
> would probably founder.
>
> Even then it might have worked for it was launched with a manual of
> rules, the Growth And Stability Pact. If the terms of that book of rules
> had been complied with the Good Ship Euro might have survived.
>
> But compliance was entrusted BTO the European Central Bank which
> catastrophically failed to insist on that compliance.
>
> Rules governing the growing of cucumbers are more zealously enforced.
> This was a European Bank in a German city under a French president and
> it failed in its primary, even its sole, duty.
>
> This had everything to do with France and Germany and nothing whatever
> to do with Britain .
>
> Yet in Brussels last week the EU pack seemed intent only on venting its
> spleen on the country that wisely refused to abolish its pound.
>
> You did not even address yourselves to saving the euro but only to
> seeking a way to ensure it might work in some future time.
>
> But the euro will not be saved. It is crumbling now. And since you have
> now turned against my country, from this side of the Channel, Madame
> Chancellor, one can only say of the euro: YOU MADE IT, YOU MEND IT.
Sandramay

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby katy » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:26 pm

Thanks for posting, very interesting and enlightening.

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Julie » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:59 pm

Ditto
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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Mowser » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:10 pm

Rules governing the growing of cucumbers are more zealously enforced.


Another myth. I thought Forsyth was above all this.
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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby frank » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:55 pm

Mowser wrote:
Rules governing the growing of cucumbers are more zealously enforced.


Another myth. I thought Forsyth was above all this.


What myth? "Bent" Cucumbers were indeed banned, they have since relaxed the law but they are sold as Class 2 cucumbers. The Germans said so, so it must be true!
http://www.german-times.com/index.php?o ... &Itemid=34
Regards, Frank

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby anis » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:18 am

Thank you for posting that, Sandramay, fascinating stuff from one of my favorite authors.

OH and I nearly cried back in the JCR, all gathered around the communal TV, all those years ago when it was announced we would join the EU. We were in the minority as I recall, all those young students jumping for the joy that we didn't feel....a black day for he and I....
and how we let our commonwealth partners down too.
Little had been said about in the news afterwards about that, but the ordinary Australian or New Zealand Joe would tell you sadly to your face, how they felt betrayed and abandoned. It has happened to us on numerous occasions on our travels since. It would have been difficult but we always felt we should have stayed with them and built the family trade up further - the days of container ships and refrigeration had made that possible.
All our wonderful cheap NZ lamb ended up in the Middle East - I know, because I used to eat it and jolly good it was too, just as in the old days. :(

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Re: Britain referendum now

Postby Devils Advocate » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:25 am

The bent cucumber ruling was certainly no myth, why do you say it was? It won't take much googling for you to see for yourself. Yes they did have to back pedal and abolish the gem of an idea but it did happen.

Also nice to see the article mentions the peace keeping force the UK was a major part of, to save Western Germany as it was.............something the Germans seem to have well forgotton now.

And the next time one of those stupid warning lights comes on the dashboard of your car and the nice man at the garage wants 100 quid to switch it off, or your car goes into "limp mode" or you are forced to pay for new lamda sensors or air flow meters at great expense...............well that's soley down to the EU too :evil: ............they have tampered with so many things with no benefits for the people you forget just how much they have ballsed up :thumbdown:
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