online Trading

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online Trading

Postby Devils Advocate » Wed May 23, 2012 12:22 pm

Go easy on me here chaps! I've also asked the same on another forum so will be interested to hear both sets of answers.

I'm very interested in how the stock market works but know totally zilch about it......other than how "good" Isas perform against "bad" ones as we discussed a few weeks ago.
I know there are a few on here who have said they do play the markets so obviously must have some good advice to maybe share.
First question.............to learn a bit more about things..........is joining up to a virtual trading account worthwhile as a first step? Does anyone know of such a beast that does real time and real priced shares for you to have a virtual dabble to learn the ropes?

Now a supplementry question, I have been looking at real sites for a while now.......even more so after the Facebook debacle (which baffles me still)....and the lingo still beats me, also what you can invest in is still a mystery.

Here's the second question, please tell me if I'm correct or miles away here, no offence taken.
A site I've just been on seems to list the UK FTSE as something to invest in, now forgive me for being basic and maybe a numpty.................but if you stuck a 6 figure sum in that now whilst it's at 5300 it seems a sure fire bet that some time soon in the scale of things it'll crash through 6000 once more as it always does............you then cash in :think: ...............Happy days? or am I totally missing out on something here?

As I say, a complete incompetant newbie but yearning to have a go......thanks for any input :thumbup:
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Re: online Trading

Postby annfoto » Wed May 23, 2012 2:10 pm

First question.............to learn a bit more about things..........is joining up to a virtual trading account worthwhile as a first step? Does anyone know of such a beast that does real time and real priced shares for you to have a virtual dabble to learn the ropes?

Yes, set up a virtual trading account it is essential, I still use mine to keep an eye on shares that I am considering buying in the future.
You should subscribe to the Financial Times and use the portfolio within their site. The prices aren't real time but as with most of these share listing they are 15minutes delayed. You should read the FT every day to keep an eye on macro events affecting global equity prices and use it for research on specific companies you are interested in.
There is a section within the FT site FT Alphaville http://ftalphaville.ft.com/ which runs a live blog Mon - Fri at 11am UK time for 1 hour, you can gain a lot of useful info here (you would have learned the real reason why you should not have bought Facebook shares).
A good learning resource here http://www.rbs-sharedealing.co.uk/rbs/learning-and-research.ashx Indeed it is also a good sharedealing account.

A site I've just been on seems to list the UK FTSE as something to invest in, now forgive me for being basic and maybe a numpty.................but if you stuck a 6 figure sum in that now whilst it's at 5300 it seems a sure fire bet that some time soon in the scale of things it'll crash through 6000 once more as it always does............you then cash in ...............Happy days? or am I totally missing out on something here?

That would be a unit trust that tracks the FTSE 100 It may indeed eventually reach 6000, then again it may not it may plummet to 4000!
Online trading in shares is about buying shares in individual companies. The skill is to pick a company that you feel is currently undervalued, buy some shares in it and if you are correct your investment will quickly double. Some shares are classed as defensive ie a good investment in volatile times, they seldom change value very much but pay a good annual dividend. Others such as bank shares are currently much more exciting and can change by more than 5% in a day you could buy late morning when they have lost 5% and sell late afternoon when they hopefully will have recovered, giving you a 5% profit in a day (less stamp duty & charges).
You are not just restricted to UK shares, I have about a third of my portfolio in US companies as a way of hedging currency risk. I recon that it is safer to have my cash invested in McDonald's, CocaCola and WallMart (all paying a decent dividend) than keep it in the bank at present.
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Re: online Trading

Postby Devils Advocate » Wed May 23, 2012 4:15 pm

Thanks for the detailed reply and also the links. The RBS one especially is quite easy-ish to understand and I spent a while on there trying to get my head around spread betting......very good read!

Now the FT, if I enroll there will the virtual (play) site become obvious?

One heck of a lot to learn but I'm thinking if I can get a grasp of things whilst markets are not the best then I'd be in a position to have a proper go in better times.

I just now need to get my head around the logistics of things....ie how I'd buy shares/bonds/spread bet etc with all monies (whether profit or loss) coming from a singular account.......and easy to keep abreast of..and take an instant snapshot of where you're at.

One more daft question on this post........I take it you could not do a spread bet for instance on the FTSE 100 from what I'm slowly learning.

Another final daft question too :mrgreen: .....If you were putting say 100k into commodoties etc would you put say 80% in somthing safe-ish like gold and have a play with the rest or is that not what it's like in the real world?

A bloke on the other forum said it's like betting on horses, a comment I knew would get rolled out :roll:.............well I don't and never have gambled, if the horse loses that's it forever on that bet, however if your shares tumble at least you still have them to hopefully fight another day.......is that a poor way of me looking at things??.........our investments go up and down regularly with the only constant winner being Fidelity :think:
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Re: online Trading

Postby annfoto » Wed May 23, 2012 5:04 pm

Now the FT, if I enroll there will the virtual (play) site become obvious?

http://www.ft.com/intl/markets On the RH side near the top of the page look for "Tools", click on that then select "Portfolio". I think there is a free trial period before you have to sign up.
I just now need to get my head around the logistics of things....ie how I'd buy shares/bonds/spread bet etc with all monies (whether profit or loss) coming from a singular account.......and easy to keep abreast of..and take an instant snapshot of where you're at

The share dealing account is actually a multi-currency bank account which you transfer money into or out of to any other bank account. You will have to take the application forms along to you bank for money laundering verification.
One more daft question on this post........I take it you could not do a spread bet for instance on the FTSE 100 from what I'm slowly learning

No but I think you can bet on where it will be at certain dates on some bookies
Another final daft question too .....If you were putting say 100k into commodoties etc would you put say 80% in somthing safe-ish like gold and have a play with the rest or is that not what it's like in the real world?

Gold is a commodity! Balance that with a drug company/diagio or some other defensive share. I take it we were talking about shares in a mining company as opposed to buying 100K worth of copper, renting a warehouse & storing it! You could take delivery of gold easier but it is way overpriced at the moment and some bandit might nick it :wave:
however if your shares tumble at least you still have them to hopefully fight another day.......is that a poor way of me looking at things

Hmm. Ideally you should have set stop losses on your shares so you don't loose the lot. If the company or bank goes bust you loose the lot.
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Re: online Trading

Postby Devils Advocate » Wed May 23, 2012 5:48 pm

Thanks for that once more. I've enrolled on the FT site you suggested. Just bought a load of Ford Mo. co shares and I'm $10 down after 30 seconds :lol: .......should be very usefull to help give me at least a basic knowledge, but bloody 'ell it's complicated...........I hope the 4k I've just spent is virtual or I will be thoroughly battered when SWMBO comes home :shock:

One of the lads has suggested this Ann.............ever used it?

http://www.iii.co.uk/trading/share-dealing/open-account
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Re: online Trading

Postby annfoto » Wed May 23, 2012 6:01 pm

DA if you are playing US markets right now try some Google shares, they got hammered because of Facebook but Google make money and have a purpose in life, still dropping right now though (ideally you should have 2 monitors so you can type on here and watch what interests you on the other one)
Car companies not ideal if double dip recession in Europe comes to pass. :wave:
That account looks fine, no good to me as I live in Spain, I had to take what I could get :thumbdown:
It is quite complex so I wanted the account to be in English, I still bank with RBS so they let me open it with them. :thumbup:
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Re: online Trading

Postby Devils Advocate » Wed May 23, 2012 6:16 pm

Ann, I just "bought" anything really and that was the first thing that popped up............I just want to see how it works in reality :thumbup: ............I'm on the Lappy at present but have a cracking 3 monitor set up in the office..........again if only I knew the software needed or what I need to display on them :roll: .

You'll be sorry you've started giving me a lift now, because as I say I'm 100% new to this, and it could be a long hard battle :D
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Re: online Trading

Postby Dr1Gonzo » Thu May 24, 2012 10:58 am

Devils Advocate wrote:Go easy on me here chaps! I've also asked the same on another forum so will be interested to hear both sets of answers.

I'm very interested in how the stock market works but know totally zilch about it......other than how "good" Isas perform against "bad" ones as we discussed a few weeks ago.
I know there are a few on here who have said they do play the markets so obviously must have some good advice to maybe share.
First question.............to learn a bit more about things..........is joining up to a virtual trading account worthwhile as a first step? Does anyone know of such a beast that does real time and real priced shares for you to have a virtual dabble to learn the ropes?

Now a supplementry question, I have been looking at real sites for a while now.......even more so after the Facebook debacle (which baffles me still)....and the lingo still beats me, also what you can invest in is still a mystery.

Here's the second question, please tell me if I'm correct or miles away here, no offence taken.
A site I've just been on seems to list the UK FTSE as something to invest in, now forgive me for being basic and maybe a numpty.................but if you stuck a 6 figure sum in that now whilst it's at 5300 it seems a sure fire bet that some time soon in the scale of things it'll crash through 6000 once more as it always does............you then cash in :think: ...............Happy days? or am I totally missing out on something here?

As I say, a complete incompetant newbie but yearning to have a go......thanks for any input :thumbup:


You obviously belong to the group of people that think everything always goes up?
You could open up a demo account either for trading shares.
You could also look into spread betting and CFDs but I am warning you, only play around with real money on that after at least 3 months demo trading...a lot of people lose a lot of money because they don't know what they are doing.

Oh, and Pro Real Time do a nice free end of day charting system that you can look up charts on if you don;t want to use Yahoo or Google Finance.

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Re: online Trading

Postby katy » Thu May 24, 2012 12:18 pm

There has been some good profit to be made by the volatility of the market, particularly last year. Bad news out banks shares drop 4% a couple of days later back to normal. Now is a good time to start, many got stung by beginning when the market was booming, bit like the property market :)

Daughter uses Halifax, we use NatWest.

Fantasy one here

http://www.halifax.co.uk/sharedealing/o ... sy-trader/

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Re: online Trading

Postby Devils Advocate » Thu May 24, 2012 2:56 pm

Gonzo, thanks. I can assure you I know things go up as well as down (to my cost at times) but your advice on the learning period is spot on, every one has to start somewhere whatever they take on :thumbup: ..........and I am absolutely clueless but striving to learn. Thanks for the tip also on the trading site, appreciated.

I've actually enrolled in the one Ann reccomended............just to get the feel of things and see what's what.......still flippin' complicated but a very dim light and I mean dim at the end of the tunnel has appeared!!
This all started a few months back when some 6 monthly ISA reports landed, some had done great and others had stayed stagnant/even lost.......I had a moan about the fund managers to SWMBO and she said put your money where your mouth is and have a bash yourself......in the nicest possible way.

Which leads me to my next (hopefully not daft) question, On Anns site, I "virtually" bought 20ks worth of stock yesterday......which equated to pulling 2 of the poor performing ISAs to keep things realistic and having a go myself.
Being a numpty I just went for 2 blue chip co's and stuck a pin in for the other............well b***** me at present I stand 142 quid up :mrgreen:

So here's the question.and I got shouted at on the other forum for even asking it :( ........how much would it cost me and how difficult is it to pull that £142 and bank it after just a day?.......there said it :mrgreen:
"Numpty", "Long term" "Everyone would do it if it were that easy" were some of the responses that baffled me...........until one lad who I know of but have never met said my idea in principle was sound and has sent me his number for a chat. After all if you've a 10k ISA that reaches 13k you can just pull the profit and knock it back to 10 with one phone call......so can you do this with stock?...........would my 142 quid be decimated by fees as some have said?..........point is I'm not after long term growth, I'm hoping that's sorted, I'm after making a few bob spends on a regular basis as opposed to cutting deals and skinning my knuckles in the real world.....lets face it, a couple of 142s a day would be nice :think: . This bloke called it "short term corrections" in his email.......now I know he is an ex trader so I'm hoping for some thoughts on this and if he thinks I'm being unreal when we speak. It would be nice to hear from the non-pro investors here with your thoughts on this one.

Many thanks again for all input

Katy, I've a Natwest acc. too which we use for Spain...........what services to they provide in enabling you to deal?..........are you having/had a go yourself?

.
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Re: online Trading

Postby annfoto » Thu May 24, 2012 3:58 pm

So here's the question.and I got shouted at on the other forum for even asking it ........how much would it cost me and how difficult is it to pull that £142 and bank it after just a day?.......there said it

With the Natwest account (same as the RBS one) buying and selling 3 shares depends on which country the share traded in.
UK shares, each share transaction is £15 + 0.5% stamp duty and a further £15 when you sell it so if they were all UK companies it would cost you £90 +0.5% stamp duty.
If they were European or US shares they would have cost you £20 for each transaction but no stamp duty ie. £120
The shares are normally bought with settlement due in 3 days (called T+3) when you sell the same applies. So the money would leave your share dealing account in 3 days time and the proceeds from the sale would be paid back in to that account later that day. If you are trading in multiple currencies it is easier to leave the money in say Euros or Dollars ar any other currencies you are dealing with. That account pays 1% p.a. which is better than most current accounts.
Don't forget that most Blue chip companies pay a dividend of around 5% p.a so it can be useful to leave them until you receive the dividend. Read up on the dividend dates for your choice of shares and find out when they pay out the dividend, you don't have to own them for a year to get it just buy them before they go Ex-dividend :thumbup:
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Re: online Trading

Postby Devils Advocate » Thu May 24, 2012 4:39 pm

Thanks for that, nice one :thumbup: ......so £142-£90+ is not as stunning as I first thought :( . Is that £15 per transaction the same no matter where you trade?, it's just that I read that some places were more expensive because they provided help/guidance/advice whereas if you went alone then costs were cheaper.......or am I confusing that too :think:

The dividend tip is something else I'd not even thought of yet, thanks............it's a shame these virtual programmes don't take these admin costs into account, or maybe they do..I didn't notice it though.

Good stuff this but what a thing to learn when you've never had a go in your life, I reckon it must be one huge learning curve just to fathom the bloody lingo.
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Re: online Trading

Postby Technobear » Thu May 24, 2012 4:44 pm

trading and making money in the short term is not that simple, wish it was :)

first, thing is there are two costs for trading...
fees - that you pay to your broker
bid/ask spread - difference in buy/sell price, think of this as market makers commision.

this means, if you buy and sell the stock immediatly and the same price, you lose money. so you need the price to rise, before you even break even.

(this is difference, between playing virtual trading games vs. using portfolio tools... games tend to include fees)


Also the market is not 'fair', as some players have an advantage especially in the short term!
a) market makers & investment bankers, pay much lower (or no) fees, and they determine the spread.
b) trading firms (IB and others) have automated trading tools... e.g. you might check your short term stocks 3 or 4 times a day, they monitor real time, so can respond sub second to news/events.
c) execution time, you see a price and try to hit it, it will take at least a few seconds, trading firms will have systems that execute < 1 millisecond.

In the short term they therefore have a huge advantage, and also can make money on much smaller price changes.

In the long term and so hopefully larger price moves, thier advantage doesnt tend to play against you so much ... basically its thier viewpoint against yours.
(example... do you think the euro will recover in 2 years time? the banks have much the same info as you, its really just your view vs. thiers)

generally, if you do long term, and diversify your risk (index trackers are good for this), and invest in things you personally know something about (e.g. a market sector/company) and dont have a fixed time you have to sell your assets at , then you can make modest returns...


oh, this is pretty obvious, but remember if someone makes $1000, someone has to have lost $1000..(actually more due to commision/spread). and people tend to shout when they make $1000 on the market, they tend to be alot quieter when they lose $1000.


anyways, this is just a bit of food for thought, from someone who used to be in investment banking.

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Re: online Trading

Postby Devils Advocate » Thu May 24, 2012 5:11 pm

Cracking reply Technobear, thanks. It has been muted to me that very point on how much a loner is disadvantaged, and your summary brings it home with a bump. An example of that has just happened to me.............a bloke on another forum has a bet on with another chap for a 1000 quid that facebook shares will be below $30 on June 1st, the bet was set on launch day..............he's just posted gloatingly saying they're at 30.89 yet my "live" info has them at 32.08...........miles out if his info is true.

My perhaps silly view on the situation of the pro traders v small time dabblers, is although the traders have the game sewn up with respect to tools,info and all the rest, they also have to earn a lot more money for the clients they work for, I imagine it to be like a sparrow (me) picking up the scraps after the pack of lions have had their quarry....again maybe wrong.

The example you give on a long term punt on the Euro.......intersting one. If I did believe the Euro would go from strength to strength in the next 24 months where or what would I put some money in to?
Just going back to Anns point once more.....this "sell the shares and get paid in 3 days"......when you press the button to sell is that price nailed in real live time?

Thanks very much again.
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Re: online Trading

Postby Technobear » Thu May 24, 2012 7:53 pm

Devils Advocate wrote:I imagine it to be like a sparrow (me) picking up the scraps after the pack of lions have had their quarry....again maybe wrong.


Unfortunately, I think its a bit worst than that ... as you are playing against these guys, you are almost the prey.

instead, imagine a poker table, with 10 players on it - how tempted would you be to play, if you knew there were 4 professionals on the table with an almost unlimited stack of chips.
(worst case scenario, is you win the first couple of hands - and think you cracked a system :))

btw, I hate the gambling analogy, as people tend to say they are 'betting', and then in thier next breath, talk about it has investment... imagine, a friend of yours saying he had invested $1000 on who was going to win the grand national, youd probably suggest he gets help ;)

the other thing wrong with the gambling analogy, is trading is far from random, its a game where the one with the most information invariably wins.


Devils Advocate wrote:The example you give on a long term punt on the Euro.......intersting one. If I did believe the Euro would go from strength to strength in the next 24 months where or what would I put some money in to?
Just going back to Anns point once more.....this "sell the shares and get paid in 3 days"......when you press the button to sell is that price nailed in real live time?


Good questions,
Euro... ok, professions use either FX (foreign exchange) options, or FX forwards, basically these either give an option to buy/sell at a given price in the future. or fix a contract for a future time.
(its little complex, the difference, and googling will give a more eloquent explaination than me :))
If you go to an retail FX seller, they I believe will offer similar products, i.e. you can call them and say id like to buy EUR/GBP at X in May 2014.
actually, its a feature i think many people under utilise, e.g. if you have income in GBP, but live in Spain... locking in a future rate could be a good idea. people do this mortgage rates all the time.

The other way, is you can invest in currency funds, e.g. if you think generally EUR will strengthen against others currencies, you can invest in a EUR fund. this fund will appreciate if EUR gains in strength otherwise depreciate. (the key, is its leveraged)

Price - simplistically the answer is yes, its locked real time BUT in practice this is not the case.
(assuming online trading) When you sell, you are placing an order, the order can have many types the main types are MARKET order, and LIMIT order.
The simplest is the MARKET order, and is the what you probably envisage. what this means is you get the best price available when your order hits the exchange. which should obviously be be very soon after you hit the sell button. assuming sufficient volume at the price you saw on the screen, then you will get that price BUT there is no guarantee ... you might get a better or worst price, it depends what is available when your order gets to the exchange.
It may be simple but you should NEVER use a market order...

Always, place LIMIT orders... basically with these orders you are saying I want want to trade but only at a given price or better... if not, then either cancel the order or wait until price returns to this price. (the first is called an IOC order, immediate or cancel - id suggest you use these)

the risk of market orders, is if there is a run on the market, you may get a ridicuoulsy low price ... and yes, it does really happen.

example, of what i mean.
imagine that you have 1000 shares of X, and you see sell price of 100.23, if you look closer you will see that thiers is a volume available at that price ... lets say 1 million. this basically means someone out there is willing to buy 1m shares at 100.23. you say, that good and you hit it.
scenario a) you place a market order
scenario b) you place a limit order @ 100.23

now just as you place this order, and trading firm, says i like that too... and place an order for 2 million @ 100.23 - and his order gets there first...
what happens?

well, what you cannot see, is that there are other buyers ... usually, they will have a close price but lower (lets say 100.22) - but at a bad time, where everybody is trying to sell, this might not be the case, no one wants to buy
EXCEPT :) a trading firm, who puts in a real low buy price of 25, ( you will often see 1!) really they are just trying to catch a temporary bargain.

in case (a) , the market order your order WILL be filled at 25!
in case (b), your limit order will NOT be filled, and you can wait till things improve slightly, usually another market maker will put another buy order up at a reasonable price, once they realise whats happened.

of course you might ask what happens if just as you place your order, a buyer comes in and says im willing to buy at 100.25... well goods news is, in either limit or market order case, you will be filled at 100.25. (assuming your order arrives after the new buyers price).

ie there is no downside to limit orders (generally), and the good news, is limit orders are easy to place, as they alway default to the current market price... so in practice, they are no harder to use than market orders... but you just have to remember, you may not be filled.


it is a fascincating area... but something you can also learn about, without risking your money :)

a good source of info for private investors, is The Motley Fool, http://www.fool.com/, has lots of articles and explanations on how market works... its a bit american based, but thats not a bad thing as the americans are far more into individual stock investment than other countries.

enjoy

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Re: online Trading

Postby Devils Advocate » Fri May 25, 2012 7:24 am

Techno, another good read, thanks. Some nice easy to understand examples that make sense.

Todays numpty question though :oops: .......long or short buys? I've gone long so far for no other reason apart from guess work. However now having googled for the definitions of the options I'm still confused by the choice. Some articles say long is a no brainer.......so why have short if that's the case.............what in laymans terms is the difference.
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Re: online Trading

Postby Chunky Monky » Sun May 27, 2012 2:07 am

This is a fascinating thread. I too like DA know very little about stocks and shares.

I am wondering if there is a website where one can see the recent share performance (up and down) of any particular company? This would obviously be useful if one wanted to buy their shares.


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Re: online Trading

Postby El Cid » Sun May 27, 2012 8:02 am


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Re: online Trading

Postby fincalospinos » Sun May 27, 2012 9:16 am

I use this site, you can build " virtual" portfolios, track investments, check equity movements, etc.


http://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/equities/default.aspx
Hardworking resident !!

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Re: online Trading

Postby Chunky Monky » Sun May 27, 2012 10:35 pm

Thanks guys, I'll take a look.


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