Made in China

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olive
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Re: Made in China

Postby olive » Sat May 23, 2020 6:31 pm

It is happening closer to home.

A few years back , we had a wander through the acres of plasticulture near Adra. We were shocked to find a small community living in abject squalor . No electric or sewage but plenty of water! That was the year people died from Spanish lettuces washed in contaminated water.

Just a couple of weeks ago there was a UK exposure on slave wages for workers in the Spanish plasticulture of a very well respected company. One of the many bad practices was to say a worker had worked say 20 hours when they had actually worked 40. I wonder if the Spanish authorities investigated?

katy
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Re: Made in China

Postby katy » Sat May 23, 2020 6:39 pm

China must have a large middle class sector now as they are touring all over the world, sometimes in expensive places. The cruise indistry from there has seen massive growth.

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Re: Made in China

Postby BENIDORM » Sat May 23, 2020 6:41 pm

Lavanda,
You've made some very valid points about several issues and it's very gracious of you to accept that maybe some of your discussion could be construed incorrectly, it's very difficult sometimes for myself to find the correct terminology to try to explain something without offending some.
For a long time I've come to the conclusion that it isn't all the fault of politics, religion , regimes ,dictators etc. for the problems in the world, it really is down to Greed, Power etc. inflicted by individuals at all levels on people who for many reasons can't defend themselves.
I was brought up by Victorian Grandparents and Edwardian parents both with different values, my family were mostly well educated and reasonably well heeled, but my family home was quite modest and my parents were very well grounded and deeply caring and compassionate people.
My Grandparents had travelled all over the world and done many things and the stories they told me influenced my thoughts and desire to travel seeking adventure and I certainly have had a very adventurous life and even as a young teenager I was able to witness first hand the good and bad acts everywhere, which is why I want to defend the Chinese people at the moment.
I hope that I've explained correctly why I feel that we shouldn't penalise complete races because of the failings of a few people, we really need to help and understand the problems without being too judgemental...methinks...
Best Wishes,
Gordon.

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Re: Made in China

Postby elusive » Sun May 24, 2020 2:37 pm

One of the many bad practices was to say a worker had worked say 20 hours when they had actually worked 40. I wonder if the Spanish authorities investigated?
-------------------------

Thats common practice in many "legitimate" jobs. Pretty normal which surprised me when i got a work contract but after talking to many it seemed it was the norm amongst alot of places. Get a 20hr a week part time job and look at your contract and it said 3hrs as at the time that was the minimum hrs needed to work inorder to be in the system (get healthcare etc) which ment the business was paying the minimal amount of spanish national insurance.rather than the large amount they would pay if they declared the full hrs. May not matter at the time but when/if you claim the paro your paro is based off you only working 3hrs a week not 20 .same towards a pension aswell. Theres been many cases of ppl wanting to claim yet getting a shock and been told you havnt worked long enough. .

Guardia used to pay visits and go through the paperwork. They obviously know what goes on as shock hour everyone bar a few are only working 3hr weeks!! But the cost of hiring someone ie the N.I that the business pays is so high all it does it contribute to the high unemployment figures and the lack of taxes been paid because they wont hire more than the minimum and the staff they do hire are on fiddled work contracts. Thats if they are lucky to get one at all. Half the year i never did.never got a wage slip for obvious reasons. 3 hrs (or whatever was on your contract)wage paid into the bank and the rest was cash in hand with advice to put it under your bed. This from a supposed credible tourist/estate agent firm.They dont tell you that on a place in the sun lol

olive
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Re: Made in China

Postby olive » Sun May 24, 2020 3:32 pm

No they don't. Slave labour is alive and well in European countries.

It is high time the whole scenario is reformed right down to "do you want to pay IVA or not"? These are the reforms the EU ought to be insisting on in return for handouts. A start could be made with insisting retail outlets continue to only accept card or phone payments.

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costakid
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Re: Made in China

Postby costakid » Sun May 24, 2020 5:01 pm

Nail bars and hand car washes in the Uk are a hive for enforced labour.

elusive
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Re: Made in China

Postby elusive » Sun May 24, 2020 5:08 pm

At the end of the day you wonder if those at the top are that bothered.the rich get richer the poor stay as they are or get poorer.anyone who wants a change gets called a commy/marxist etc etc. Who thought wanting abit of social justice would make you such a bad person.talk about things going in full circle.seeing the simon reeve programme at almeria was certainly an eye opener.

Its not rocket science that if you charge huge N.I rates then it will make a company not want to hire more staff. A friend who owned a cafe said to hire a part time staff member would cost them something like 400 a month and thats before wages. Cut the N.I rate and create jobs which will in the end create more taxes and revenue for the economy. Its not difficult. Until that changes the economy and unemployement here wont change.

Yeah the car washes where i lived in the uk were manned by eastern europeans and iraqi/kurds etc. Funny how the supervisor was always a white brit. The guys worked their bits off in all weathers. Human trafficing is becoming a big problem everywhere. Always shocking to hear when raids have taken place

olive
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Re: Made in China

Postby olive » Sun May 24, 2020 5:27 pm

costakid wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:01 pm
Nail bars and hand car washes in the Uk are a hive for enforced labour.
pity the authorities haven't made the connection.

I used a car wash on the Aylestone Road, Leicester last year. I thought it was a machine when I pulled in but it was all hand wash. The men worked like Trojans in silence. I sat on the wall with another customer. I concluded that they were east European. The customer said they all live over the road in that flat. The "owner" was also an East European but spoke reasonable English. His customer care skills were impeccable and they did a superb job. Do you use them again or not?

Lavanda
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Re: Made in China

Postby Lavanda » Sun May 24, 2020 5:48 pm

Tricky. If they were illegal asylum seekers, political refugees or economic migrants then a person would have to sort out their moral stances on that one.

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Re: Made in China

Postby katy » Sun May 24, 2020 10:15 pm

We use a car wash that has a pitch at a local garden centre. They are very good, no “white, or black Brits” involved. They must have had a rough time recently.

elusive
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Re: Made in China

Postby elusive » Mon May 25, 2020 8:46 am

Lavanda wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:48 pm
Tricky. If they were illegal asylum seekers, political refugees or economic migrants then a person would have to sort out their moral stances on that one.
Yeah lots of issues.ay mine concern is whos getting the money. whos using who. . Organised crime using ppl to make money for their "ventures"

Good luck to anyone who wants to move to another country to better themselves legallly or otherwise. Most moved here to have a better life and its only the complete and utter fluke of where they were born or brought up,something that they had no choice in that allowed them to get on a plane and fly here rather than take their chances on a rubber dingy.

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Re: Made in China

Postby Lavanda » Mon May 25, 2020 10:37 am

who's getting the money. who's using who
Agree totally, especially were young boys and girls are concerned. This bring me back to Made in China. I simply cannot support buying things made in that country, knowing the conditions under which the workers work. The profits and money to be made prop up a dreadful regime and/or multinational companies who never pay any tax anywhere and never contribute anything globally apart from poorly-paid, dead-end jobs and poor quality goods (in the main, as I do take Gordon's point about some handicrafts are lovely).

elusive
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Re: Made in China

Postby elusive » Mon May 25, 2020 1:06 pm

Arrests in valencia and somewhere else on the news today for gangs keeping eastern europeans in slavery and trafficing them.

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Re: Made in China

Postby BENIDORM » Mon May 25, 2020 1:43 pm

Lavanda,
Although I'm aware that your views and actions are sincere and honourable by not supporting factories etc who ill-treat their workers, I would like you to consider the point that the people who run the illicit enterprises and exploit workers are most likely Not supporting or funding governments or regimes, the profits will mostly certainly go into their deep silk lined pockets.!
The type of people who exploit other humans and animals to make financial gain really are the lowest form of humanity and I doubt that they give a f 'f .....s 's......number 2's.. about anyone but themselves.

I apologise I almost uttered profanities then.. :oops: :oops:

Regards,
Gordon :silent:

Lavanda
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Re: Made in China

Postby Lavanda » Mon May 25, 2020 2:23 pm

Slave labour, in fact. Yes, I agree as, in some cases, it is private enterprise. We have seen examples of multimillionaires furloughing their people during the Covid-19 panic and putting their hands out for tax-payers money. In other words, money their workers pay in tax but they pay nothing themselves, of course.

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Re: Made in China

Postby Manchesteral » Mon May 25, 2020 10:01 pm

elusive wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:37 pm
One of the many bad practices was to say a worker had worked say 20 hours when they had actually worked 40. I wonder if the Spanish authorities investigated?
-------------------------

Thats common practice in many "legitimate" jobs. Pretty normal which surprised me when i got a work contract but after talking to many it seemed it was the norm amongst alot of places. Get a 20hr a week part time job and look at your contract and it said 3hrs as at the time that was the minimum hrs needed to work inorder to be in the system (get healthcare etc) which ment the business was paying the minimal amount of spanish national insurance.rather than the large amount they would pay if they declared the full hrs. May not matter at the time but when/if you claim the paro your paro is based off you only working 3hrs a week not 20 .same towards a pension aswell. Theres been many cases of ppl wanting to claim yet getting a shock and been told you havnt worked long enough. .

Guardia used to pay visits and go through the paperwork. They obviously know what goes on as shock hour everyone bar a few are only working 3hr weeks!! But the cost of hiring someone ie the N.I that the business pays is so high all it does it contribute to the high unemployment figures and the lack of taxes been paid because they wont hire more than the minimum and the staff they do hire are on fiddled work contracts. Thats if they are lucky to get one at all. Half the year i never did.never got a wage slip for obvious reasons. 3 hrs (or whatever was on your contract)wage paid into the bank and the rest was cash in hand with advice to put it under your bed. This from a supposed credible tourist/estate agent firm.They dont tell you that on a place in the sun lol
Normal practice (at least in Gran Canaria) is to offer a contract of 182 days, then it's terminated, a weeks holiday and start again.
I've been told that the reason for this is that if you are on a longer contract and the hotel sacks you then they have to pay you huge compensation, I don't know how true this is but a young Finnish woman I know who has worked in various hotels here for a number of years tells me that she has never been offered a long term contract despite being an excellent employee !

Lavanda
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Re: Made in China

Postby Lavanda » Tue May 26, 2020 6:54 am

Maybe the answer is for a massive overhaul of taxes and of who pays what. Business rates/taxes etc and the cost of employing someone etc. It all seems such a complicated muddle. That's not just true in Spain, either. In fact, while Governments phaff about with trivia why don't they sort out the fundamentals first?

elusive
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Re: Made in China

Postby elusive » Tue May 26, 2020 12:24 pm

Yeah manchester Certainly heard of that down here for "full time" contracts aswell. Also the reason as you say. If you only have a "temp" contract comes less redunancy type payments etc

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Re: Made in China

Postby markwilding » Tue May 26, 2020 12:46 pm

olive wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 3:32 pm
No they don't. Slave labour is alive and well in European countries.

It is high time the whole scenario is reformed right down to "do you want to pay IVA or not"? These are the reforms the EU ought to be insisting on in return for handouts. A start could be made with insisting retail outlets continue to only accept card or phone payments.
Yes' but it's illegal in Europe , Have you not heard of the minimum wage and hours? It's up to induvial countries to investigate and prosecute.

There is exploitation throughout the world and there is no simple answer on how to enforce change. Boycotting creates further financial problems tor the very people you are trying to help and who are the ones who suffer most under the regimes we are trying to make our protests against.

Although I don't particularly protest against China. I refuse to buy in shops like Primark who have clothes so cheap that I believe it's feasible to think that one of the reasons can be put down to cheap labour. However, it seems to me that many don't agree with me as their shops are always packed.
Lavanda wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 6:54 am
Maybe the answer is for a massive overhaul of taxes and of who pays what. Business rates/taxes etc and the cost of employing someone etc. It all seems such a complicated muddle. That's not just true in Spain, either. In fact, while Governments phaff about with trivia why don't they sort out the fundamentals first?
I think most people would agree with this, and there are efforts by certain European countries such as France, Spain and the UK to bring in a digital tax, which I believe is absolutely essential, However, the USA are calling it a tariff and are threatening sanctions.
Normal shops are suffering and it does seem to me to be logical to shift more fiscal responsibility over to companies like Amazon but in the meantime reducing taxes without bringing in something else to replace it might prove difficult

olive
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Re: Made in China

Postby olive » Tue May 26, 2020 6:07 pm

Just because it is illegal doesnt mean it isnt happening. I agree countries should investigate. Maybe the police do not want to rock the boat. The losers would be those being exploited.

How could a hit team prove someone worked forty hours and got paid minimum wage for much less recorded hours. The gangmasters have it all tied down.


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