UKIP looking ok :)

[JWhite]

That's OK for companies selling INTO the EU but no good for British consumers here who are skint and cannot afford to buy those goods ! It is not a free market where we can make trade agreements with the rest of the world and therefore is unhealthy for the UK.

Also the EU is brilliant for big business companies making millions and paying no tax here i.e. Google etc. (sucking the UK dry whilst using their trading prowess to sell here and the rest of the EU) but it is people who vote for governments and it is people in the UK that want to see some growth HERE! Sorry, but I weep no tears for big companies who might lose their orders to the EU when it is companies selling INTO the UK like energy companies that are sucking us dry of money to enable them to keep their own home customers' bills down and thereby taking all available cash from UK consumers to buy goods here.

Big business will have to get used to selling to the rest of the world like China and India do, they seem to have no problems exporting their stuff to the rest of the world (after all we do have slave labour rates here now too!) and many of our companies are now breaking into those markets too but with the EU embargo on contracts being made by the UK with the rest of the world it is stopping companies from expanding their market base. The EU is stiffling our businesses selling into the wide world whilst EU companies are trading off our misery. It is a one way street and time it was stopped ! Whatever the reasons, and we can all argue it was Maggie who sold off the energy companies in the first place, the world has moved on and we are reaping the misery of being in the EU without any of the advantages through our government's own self interests who are more interested in keeping the money flowing into their bank accounts through their business interests in Europe (they sit on utility company boards, NHS boards etc. and also have property interests there). They are then not going to vote to come out or even want to offer a referendum.

Luckily there are far more poor people than millionaires here, many without jobs, who suffer the negative effects of the EU so many more to vote against staying in, thank god !

[JWhite]

In other words the rest of the EU pays lip service to the rules and laws, they obey them when it suits them. We always obey the law unfortunately. This is borne out by the number of terrorists deported by other EU countries. I think I read the French had deported over 100, UK = nil !

This isn't a EU problem, it's a UK problem. You are also confusing the EU with the ECHR.

I think you will find if you read back on my posts I said we wanted out of the EU and also the ECHR, you cannot have exit of the ECHR whilst remaining a member of the EU. This isn't a UK problem when we are out of the EU. The rest of the EU ignore the rules of the ECHR and do as they please, hence the French frogmarching hundreds of Romanians to the border when they slipped into France. They couldn't give a shyte for Brussels or the EU rules when it suits them. Also their rules on wearing the Burka etc. They make the rules up as they go along and sod the EU rules, so should we !

I also notice this morning in the news headlines, apparently Spain is charging Brits for health treatment even when they have their EHIC cards and produce them at the point of treatment. There have been over 100 cases reported to the ECHR. Still again, Spain make it up as they go along too.

[Mowser]

You cannot have exit of the ECHR whilst remaining a member of the EU.

Then again:-

The European Union (EU) is not a member of the Council of Europe, and the European Union takes the view that while it is bound by the European Convention it is not bound by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights.

[pete_l]

That's OK for companies selling INTO the EU but no good for British consumers here who are skint and cannot afford to buy those goods ! It is not a free market where we can make trade agreements with the rest of the world and therefore is unhealthy for the UK.

And where does all the UK's cheap food come from? All the salad, vegetables, fruit etc. A large proportion of it is grown in Spain.
Last summer I was taken aback while in my (UK) local Sainsbury. They had UK grown strawberries on sale and also American strabs, flown in, thousands of miles. The problem was that the foreign ones were cheaper than the ones grown 50 miles away.
Without the cheap EU-grown food and other products a lot of the prices in the UK shops would be much higher. Guess who that would hurt most - yup! the lower paid workers and their famillies.

Also the EU is brilliant for big business companies making millions and paying no tax here i.e. Google etc. (sucking the UK dry whilst using their trading prowess to sell here and the rest of the EU) but

True enough - but those companies also provide jobs in the UK. Most multinationals that are in the UK have chosen the country specifically because it's in the EU and could leave in an instant if they chose to (and most of them negotiate favourable grants and conditions before setting up in the UK). If the UK left the EU, they'd be out in a shot - closing their UK operations and laying off their british workers.

Which is better: to extract a few tens of millions of pounds from some multinationals and then have them take their jobs elsewhere, or let them "get away" (legally) by paying little corporation tax and having them employ hundreds or thousands of UK staff? Goose ... golden eggs ...
Remember that Cameron was very enthusiastic to try to court rich french people when their government was considering imposing large taxes on them. "Come to low-tax britian, you'll be welcome here", he said.

[JWhite]

That's OK for companies selling INTO the EU but no good for British consumers here who are skint and cannot afford to buy those goods ! It is not a free market where we can make trade agreements with the rest of the world and therefore is unhealthy for the UK.

And where does all the UK's cheap food come from? All the salad, vegetables, fruit etc. A large proportion of it is grown in Spain.
Last summer I was taken aback while in my (UK) local Sainsbury. They had UK grown strawberries on sale and also American strabs, flown in, thousands of miles. The problem was that the foreign ones were cheaper than the ones grown 50 miles away.
Without the cheap EU-grown food and other products a lot of the prices in the UK shops would be much higher. Guess who that would hurt most - yup! the lower paid workers and their famillies.

Also the EU is brilliant for big business companies making millions and paying no tax here i.e. Google etc. (sucking the UK dry whilst using their trading prowess to sell here and the rest of the EU) but

True enough - but those companies also provide jobs in the UK. Most multinationals that are in the UK have chosen the country specifically because it's in the EU and could leave in an instant if they chose to (and most of them negotiate favourable grants and conditions before setting up in the UK). If the UK left the EU, they'd be out in a shot - closing their UK operations and laying off their british workers.

Which is better: to extract a few tens of millions of pounds from some multinationals and then have them take their jobs elsewhere, or let them "get away" (legally) by paying little corporation tax and having them employ hundreds or thousands of UK staff? Goose ... golden eggs ...
Remember that Cameron was very enthusiastic to try to court rich french people when their government was considering imposing large taxes on them. "Come to low-tax britian, you'll be welcome here", he said.

I can't believe you support huge multinationals not paying tax in the UK !! If they paid their fair share, perhaps we the British wouldn't keep being pumped to pay more and more to subsidise big business, there is far too much money pouring into huge multinationals here whilst paying slave labour rates whilst also expecting to use our services to sell their products whilst paying nothing into our infrastructure to hold up those services, i.e. Royal Mail, transport services etc. They use our roads but pay nothing to maintain them, disgraceful !!!!!

Also if you think the EU would stop selling into the UK if we pulled out you are kidding, they are glad of every market they can sell into. Like I say, the only ones in support of the UK staying in the EU are ones benefitting from being there and are happy for the British people to keep bankrolling the EU by paying £19billion pa into it, taking all 3rd world immigrants (we were recently "instructed" by Brussels that we HAD GOT TO, yes HAD GOT TO take all Romainais and Bulgarian immigrants AND give them jobs because the UK has the lowest unemployment in the EU ! We also have to keep them on benefits, etc. and the companies operating out of the EU and selling into UK markets is also taking those markets without paying for the services that keep them trading here

We need out of this cosy little club now before we are finished !

[JWhite]

That's OK for companies selling INTO the EU but no good for British consumers here who are skint and cannot afford to buy those goods ! It is not a free market where we can make trade agreements with the rest of the world and therefore is unhealthy for the UK.

And where does all the UK's cheap food come from? All the salad, vegetables, fruit etc. A large proportion of it is grown in Spain.
Last summer I was taken aback while in my (UK) local Sainsbury. They had UK grown strawberries on sale and also American strabs, flown in, thousands of miles. The problem was that the foreign ones were cheaper than the ones grown 50 miles away.
Without the cheap EU-grown food and other products a lot of the prices in the UK shops would be much higher. Guess who that would hurt most - yup! the lower paid workers and their famillies.

Also the EU is brilliant for big business companies making millions and paying no tax here i.e. Google etc. (sucking the UK dry whilst using their trading prowess to sell here and the rest of the EU) but

True enough - but those companies also provide jobs in the UK. Most multinationals that are in the UK have chosen the country specifically because it's in the EU and could leave in an instant if they chose to (and most of them negotiate favourable grants and conditions before setting up in the UK). If the UK left the EU, they'd be out in a shot - closing their UK operations and laying off their british workers.

Which is better: to extract a few tens of millions of pounds from some multinationals and then have them take their jobs elsewhere, or let them "get away" (legally) by paying little corporation tax and having them employ hundreds or thousands of UK staff? Goose ... golden eggs ...
Remember that Cameron was very enthusiastic to try to court rich french people when their government was considering imposing large taxes on them. "Come to low-tax britian, you'll be welcome here", he said.

I can't believe you support huge multinationals not paying tax in the UK !! If they paid their fair share, perhaps we the British wouldn't keep being pumped to pay more and more to subsidise big business, there is far too much money pouring into huge multinationals here whilst paying slave labour rates whilst also expecting to use our services to sell their products whilst paying nothing into our infrastructure to hold up those services, i.e. Royal Mail, transport services etc. They use our roads but pay nothing to maintain them, disgraceful !!!!!

Also if you think the EU would stop selling into the UK if we pulled out you are kidding, they are glad of every market they can sell into. Like I say, the only ones in support of the UK staying in the EU are ones benefitting from being there and are happy for the British people to keep bankrolling the EU by paying £19billion pa into it, taking all 3rd world immigrants (we were recently "instructed" by Brussels that we HAD GOT TO, yes HAD GOT TO take all Romainais and Bulgarian immigrants AND give them jobs because the UK has the lowest unemployment in the EU ! We also have to keep them on benefits, etc. and the companies operating out of the EU and selling into UK markets is also taking those markets without paying for the services that keep them trading here

We need out of this cosy little club now before we are finished !

By the way, paying low tax is not the same as paying no tax which is what huge companies like Google try to get away with. We have the lowest corporation taxes here now probably in Europe but these companies still don't want to pay their fare share and they are allowed to get away with it. Too many loopholes.

By the way how many other EU countries let them get away with paying no tax too ?

[pete_l]

Also if you think the EU would stop selling into the UK if we pulled out you are kidding, they are glad of every market they can sell into. Like I say, the only ones in support of the UK staying in the EU are ones benefitting from being there and are happy for the British people to keep bankrolling the EU by paying £19billion pa into it, taking all 3rd world immigrants (we were recently "instructed" by Brussels that we HAD GOT TO, yes HAD GOT TO take all Romainais and Bulgarian immigrants AND give them jobs because the UK has the lowest unemployment in the EU ! We also have to keep them on benefits, etc. and the companies operating out of the EU and selling into UK markets is also taking those markets without paying for the services that keep them trading here

We need out of this cosy little club now before we are finished !

I don't know where to start.

UK companies using roads DO pay (something) towards that use: road tax. It's a lot higher on commercial vehicles and trucks than on private cars (though not proportionate to the wear they cause), but that's part of the subsidies that all govts. everywhere are willing to pay for the benefits that businesses bring to their countries, and the overall lower costs their citizens enjoy from cheap and efficient transport and infrastructure.

So far as "big business" is concerned. Stop and think about what those businesses actually are. They're employers for thousands and thousands of people. They are also public companies that financial institutions buy shares in. Those institutions are, in a large part, pension funds - making investments to fund peoples' pensions: yours and mine. So if you want those companies to make less profit, are you willing to either be made unemployed if you work for them (or someone you care about does) or are you willing to take a lower pension - as you & I effectively own the same companies you're criticising.

You're absolutely right that other european companies wouldn't stop selling to the UK if it pulled out of the EU, but UK citizens and businesses would pay higher prices than they do now - and the EU states would pay more for british goods, making them less competitive and reducing the amount they bought from the UK. The whole raison d'etre of the EU is to reduce trading inefficiencies and barriers - thereby reducing consumer prices and increasing trade and therefore jobs. Making everyone wealthier in the process. Why do you think the USA became the dominant trading country in the 19th century? Not because each individual state insisted on stopping every trade good at it's border and taxing it.

[JWhite]

Sorry but again you are talking "big business interests". Those companies sell to who will buy their goods, if people have no money they do not buy as millions are not in the UK, wages forced through the floor by immigrations and more to come to take yet more jobs, there are hundreds of small companies now paying below the minimum wage and the black market of cash in hand jobs is flourishing where they pay no tax or NI. Also my pension is state pension, so you saying the government would take part of it back ? I don't think so. People who have private investments may lose out, that means nothing to poor people who have none.

Subsidies do not pay fully for the damage done to our infrastructure, otherwise our roads would not be falling apart through lack of funding which comes from council taxes too which has been frozen by the government due to the impoverished people not being able to afford to pay more into their coffers. EU lorries that drive on our motorways who pay nothing in road tolls for the maintenance of those roads too, whereas in Europe there are road tolls everywhere.

The EU is a downward driving force that is making people poorer and poorer and the EU sits there trying to enforce its "communism" on hundreds of millions of people, if those countries can't pay their way to Brussels, they rob the savings of people to pay for it, absolutely disgraceful. I do not want to live in a communist state where I am told what and where to eat, how to eat, where to buy, how to buy, where to work, how to work, how to live, where to live !

I want our country back from the dominance of Brussels and UKIP want the same, they will get my vote and millions of others too who are sick of the marxist rulers of Brussels.

[pete_l]

Sorry but again you are talking "big business interests"

Big business is you and I. You can't get away from it or deny it.
We all buy stuff from big business or their subsidiaries, we all work for big businesses or for companies that couldn't survive without them, we own shares in big businesses - or our investments do: ISAs (a tax avoidance system if ever there was one), pensions, interest-paying savings accounts - and we would all be destitute without big businesses.

The EU is a downward driving force that is making people poorer and poorer and the EU sits there trying to enforce its "communism" on hundreds of millions of people ....

SIGH!

[JWhite]

Sorry but again you are talking "big business interests"

Big business is you and I. You can't get away from it or deny it.
We all buy stuff from big business or their subsidiaries, we all work for big businesses or for companies that couldn't survive without them, we own shares in big businesses - or our investments do: ISAs (a tax avoidance system if ever there was one), pensions, interest-paying savings accounts - and we would all be destitute without big businesses.

As i said only if you have investments (ISA's) or are employed - neither of which apply to me as I am retired ! Happily we all vote purely out of selfish interests (rich vote for what will make them richer), and poorer people vote for what will help them too. Thank God governments can't buy or take votes from poor people, or we would have millions committing suicide at the prospect of rich people making their own policies purely to benefit them and leaving the poor to starve, whoops, sorry we do, they are called the Conservatives (millionaires), then there are Labour (millionaires), then there are LibDems (millionaires). Voting is the only thing that is free still (thank god) Time to have some working class people in government who know what it is really like to do without and be without the things rich folk take for granted.

[markwilding]

Can I have some of that stuff you're smoking?
Maybe she got on another bus where the driver couldn't speak English.

[janda_grant2]

And there was me thinking this was a thread about how well UKIP have done in local council elections! I'm over the moon as the UKIP in Lincolnshire have now promised to do something about the potholes in the roads - far more important at the moment than party politics and a referendum on staying in europe (And what they should be doing in local councils!) If I'm really lucky they may extend the garden waste collections and lower car parking charges!

@JWhite - I said I lived in a rural area where migrant workers were empoyed -not all of them work in the fields, there are many pack houses and food processing plants here too! Please don't generalise.

One more thing - millionaires

Nigel Farage : was educated at Dulwich College.[Public school] In 1982 he joined the London commodity brokerage firm Drexel Burnham Lambert. In 1986, he joined Credit Lyonnais Rouse. He joined Refco in 1994, and Natexis Metals in 2003.

I'm willing to bet he's not on his uppers and has more than half a crown invested! So I'm guessing you won't be voting for him then!

[olive]

trying to enforce its "communism" on hundreds of millions of people ....

SIGH!

Like it or not that is exactly where the EU is inexorably heading. It will be a large inneficient unnacountable communist state with decisions being made by unelected leaders in Brussels (as they are doing now). The draconian conditions imposed on countries after their bailouts being just one example. If the people have the temerity to say they don't like it then they just ignore them and their votes (Lisbon Treaty) etc. Anyone who thinks differently is frankly just deluded, it cannot end any other way.

It may well be that people want to live in that sort of an EU. I doubt it somehow, it certainly isn't what my parents voted for.

No one mentioned the Tobin tax. The EU has already passed legislation to have a slice of every financial transaction done in quite a few member states. They want to include Britain in that. Just what effect would that have on the UK GDP (10% Financial sector?). Will Joe Public relish yet another attack on their private pension? Remember that the Tobin Tax goes to Brussels not to the UK government.

On some of the specifics. Yes big business keeps the world going though I am not sure just how many folk Google actually employ in Europe versus their gigantic profits.

As for trade in or out of Europe. Europe isn't exactly brimmed with folk desperate to spend their cash- there is a crisis. A Europe without the UK would be pleased to trade with it just the same as the UK is pleased to trade with Brazil and so on. I do not subscribe to the EU putting up trade barriers to the Uk after exiting theories. It is possible that individuals might shun foreign goods of say a British origin. Just like Britain did post war for German goods. Such thoughts never last long when faced with buying a Mercedes or Aston Martin car!

I don't get the transport element of the thread at all. The UK gathers more from taxes on Motor Vehicle usage than they ever spend on road infrastructure. Foreign users pay nothing. In many cases they even fill up cheaply specifically before entering the UK and so don't even contribute any VAT.

Cheap food? UK bananas 68p a kilo. Good quality too. Bananas in Spain. 1.25 euros a kilo about double.Parsnips and Caulis both cheaper than in Spain.

UKIP may not have all the answers but at least they are honest enough to be offering something that a surprising number of citizens want unlike the other three parties.

[Free at Last]

I saw reference to this website in The Guardian the other day, so looked it up.
http://juniusonukip.blogspot.com.es/

It's run by disaffected members of UKIP (strange that such a new party should have so many of them so soon) and they certainly don't have a good word to say for Nigel Farage. The "bloke down the pub" persona is very much put on for the cameras, according to them.

[barry]

Bananas 1.25 euros a kilo? Where?

[Lavanda]

Mowser wrote: "This isn't a EU problem, it's a UK problem"

That's what I have been thinking for ages. All the UK's problems today — that UKIP claim will be fixed by leaving the EU — were actually created in the UK by successive UK governments. Whether the UK is in or out of the EU will not make the slightest bit of difference to the long road the country is bound for in the next few decades. The UK doesn't understand the EU and therefore the UK functions at a huge disadvantage. I'm not sure, either, that UKIP understands the UK if it REALLY thinks people will vote to leave the EU in a referendum. I don't think it will ...

[katy]

The EU is not exactly competative with it's high subsidies, VATetc. Just look at the high taxes on flights too which the rest of the world are complaining about. Much of the produce in Sainsbury, Waitrose etc. is not from the EU anymore, they have priced themselves out. Moroccn tomatoes are just as good as Spainsand cheaper, likewise green beans from Israel.

I have a share in a family co. If it had relied on selling to the EU over the past few years I would be skint now! Fortunately trade with the rest of the world is booming.

[Mowser]

and the EU sits there trying to enforce its "communism" on hundreds of millions of people

What a load of guff. You obviously have little or no idea about communism.

[JWhite]

What is there not to understand about communism - you get a bunch of people and force them to work for the lowest common denominator purely by the massive number of people chasing jobs, so that the "people at the top" can make the rules, keep the people in order working to strict laws and keep themselves well paid, no real threat of a strike whilst there is masses of people queuing outside waiting to take your job. Next thing on the agenda? Well the UK benefits are being cut at the moment and as time goes on and people get used to the idea that the NHS is being privatised off and the country can't afford the benefits system, out they will go and everyone will be like any other 3rd world country, one slice of bread behind starvation. No one will be able to afford to buy houses anymore on slave wages, hence landlords thriving on buy to let, no-one able to buy cars like in other 3rd world countries. People are already living in slums where landlords are not doing even basic repairs.

Anyone that cannot see what's happening is walking round with blinkers on. The writing is on the wall and we have had 20 yrs or more to see what is happening with the EU and it is just another self serving monster organisation that is unaccountable to anyone but themselves.

As for Nigel Farage and his image, the same could be said about anyone of the other 3 party heads, they are all a bunch of self serving politicians with too many fingers in too many pies to be interested in what the people want or need.

[Mowser]