wind farms

[Lavanda]

Would you consider buying a house near a wind farm? Would you holiday in a wind farm area? I went down to Tarifa some time ago and the wind turbines seemed almost part of the villages on the coast going down. There seemed to be plenty of tourists, attracted to the wind driven water sports, I imagine, but what about other holiday options? Would you go biking, riding or walking in a wind farm area?

[dxf]

Hola a todos,

I live in Chiclana and at night I think the blinking of the wind farms adds something to the night sky. But the turbines are noisy if up close. But better wind farms than burn oil or coal - I like having electricity

Davexf

[chrissiehope]

When we bought our casa, there wasn't a wind farm nearby, but after a year or two we noticed activity on the hilltop behind us. We now have 8 turbines - we quite like them When the wind is in a particular direction we can hear a faint whine, and once we realised what the flashing lights were, they don't bother us either. In one way they have spoiled the view a bit (tho the best view is in the opposite direction anyway), but in another, they add something, standing there against the skyline......
We've become quite possessive of them - we refer to them as 'our turbines', and it's surprising how far away you can be and still see them

[ajtg1952]

Funnily enough, I have built wind farms all over the world, including the two largest farms in Europe, but I would not like to live within sight of one.

There are no problems living near a turbine; they are very safe, but I just don't like them. Probably seen too many.

However, my wife loves them and would love to have one across the valley from our house.

It's the Marmite thing again!

[Lavanda]

Interesting ... to read the Press you would think everyone hated them absolutely. As for 'liking electricity' dxf, wind farms are probably the least efficient way to secure a constant supply. Once the wind drops, the gas or coal back-up has to kick in INSTANTLY otherwise the supply stops dead. I'm not really sure about them because of the carbon footprint of all that concrete needed to anchor them in the ground and I'm instinctivly against something so dependent on tax payers money while said tax payer's bills continue to rise. It's rather silly. However, they look nicer than a lot of things - like pylons!

[knowal]

I predict that in a decade or two they will all be out of action, seen as a folly of a past age. They are OK when they are working, but on a recent drive through Spain and France I saw thousands of them that were stationary. Then, they are just a useless blot on the landscape.
Hopefully, when politicians get it right, we will have lots of electricity from our new safe clean nuclear power stations.

[katy]

Agree with the last 2 posters. The Authorities putting them up in the sea and at beauty spots should be taken to the Hague court for crimes against humanity

[quebin]

Tilting at Windmills!

It's funny but I bet that most people like old windmills but hate the newer version.

[Lavanda]

Something to do with corruption, subsidies, politics, lies, greed, impositions and money-making energy giants that send out ever increasing bills, I suppose.

[dxf]

As for 'liking electricity' dxf, wind farms are probably the least efficient way to secure a constant supply. Once the wind drops, the gas or coal back-up has to kick in INSTANTLY otherwise the supply stops dead.

There are other backups - like in wales they pump water to the top of a mountain and release it overnight to generate electricity. I concede that battery backup isn´t viable in the main, but all wind doesn´t drop suddenly and other power stations can be brought on-line as and when necessary.

The rotor blades of the windmills are not as efficient as they can be and more wok is needed to get more energy out of the wind

Davexf

[Lavanda]

I can never really understand this energy production thing. Pumping water up to the top of a mountain presumably uses energy and then it makes energy. It seems ridiculous to me.

We have a bio mass plant in our next village. Logs are cut down somewhere using energy, transported to the plant using energy, moved around by forklift loaders using energy, cut up into sawdust using energy, transported into the plant using energy ... in order to make energy. Of course it's subsidised. It doesn't actually produce more energy than it consumes but who cares about that. It's 'green' and trendy and the tax payer is paying.

[knowal]

Then there's the damage to wildlike, large raptors (often rare) and the bat population in some of these areas has been reduced to almost zero.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxSdU-fozGY
If you support them because they are "green", think twice.

[gerryh]

I can never really understand this energy production thing. Pumping water up to the top of a mountain presumably uses energy and then it makes energy. It seems ridiculous to me.

Conventional power stations usually use heating from coal, gas, oil, nuclear power to produce steam.
They can't do this instantly.
So when Coronation Street finishes a lot of people go into the kitchen and put the kettle on.
There is a sudden increase in power demand.
The pumped water system pumps water up to the top reservoir overnight when there is surplus power due to low demand.
At peak usage time the water can be released and power is immediately generated.
OK it might not be energy efficient but it is a good way of producing power immediately it is required.
Cheers
Gerry

[Lavanda]

So it's like recycling the same energy? Unused energy from quiet times is used to make energy for busy times? I can't put my finger on it but that seems crazy. Why not just store the unused energy until it's wanted? Why use it to replicate itself?

[dxf]

Why not just store the unused energy until it's wanted? Why use it to replicate itself?

Hola

So how are you going to store it? From memory they regain over 90% using the mountain water, and consider it a very worthwhile exercise

Davexf

[ajtg1952]

Pumped storage schemes are very efficient but exceptionally difficult to construct. I worked on the Cruachan scheme in the early 70's.
The power station was wholly constructed within Ben Cruachan and the upper reservoir created behind a new dam; both expensive and difficult to build. Even with a full upper hold it can only run for a few hours.

The same turbines act as reverse pumps to take the water back at night when there is excess power in the grid. It is the nearest that you can get to "store" electricity.

Because they are difficult to build there are only 3 such schemes in the UK.

[Lavanda]

Hola Dave,
I'm not a scientific person - far from it - but I'm trying to understand. We (my OH and I) store our energy in batteries and it's there when we want it. I appreciate that whole cities would need battery stores the size of planet Mars but I just think we, as a whole, are energy inefficient and are destroying the world in order to fuel (literally) our 'need' for energy - most of which, I suspect, we waste. There's a very telling report out today showing how Golbal 'Warming' is not, in fact, happening at all. Never mind. Energy companies are making zillions as energy bills spiral. I'm so glad we are not in that particular loop.

As for wind turbines, they use too much concrete. One bag of concrete has the worst carbon footprint of anything else on the face of the Earth. Very 'Green'!

[Lavanda]

Just seen your post, ajgt. How expensive are they to build? Only three made because they are difficult to build? What would be your answer to 16 million people all wanting a cup of tea at once?

[gerryh]

I appreciate that whole cities would need battery stores the size of planet Mars

You have answered your own question as to why stored water systems are better than batteries.
If you can think of a better/ cheaper system of storing electricity then let me know.
I will then patent it and make a fortune.
Cheers
Gerry

[ajtg1952]

I hydro scheme can be fully operational in under a minute. The Glendoe scheme, which is the newest hydro scheme in Europe and has a massive head can go from 0 to 100MW in under 30 seconds; now that is fast.

A pumped storage scheme will cost about 300M GBP or more and the locations have to be very specific.

As to windfarms, I said I don't like the look of them but they are efficient, despite some of the comments on this thread. Land based farms have probably reached the limit of turbine output, about 2.5MW. This is basically as big as you can transport on the road. Blade lengths of 15m need a lot of road signs and garden walls removed to get them to the site.

Offshore farms can go much bigger with 10 MW being the standard and blade lengths of 35m.

Wind turbines operate at low to medium wind velocities but they have to feather if the wind speed gets too high. When you see a turbine stationary there are many reasons for this and not just to create "a blot on the landscape".