Spain political uncertainty

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katy
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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby katy » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:17 pm

Surprises me too! I am interested and read the Spanish newspapers but the formation of a new Government is so complicated I have given up the will to live. I want someone to sum it up in a couple of paras.

Incredible that almost 4 months after the election it is all still in the air.

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Lavanda » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:15 pm

There isn't 'little interest' on the streets as local people talk of almost nothing else and the subject is on the TV 24/7. There's not too much on here, possibly, because the foreign people (us) either don't understand it or don't care. We're too preoccupied with the coming "UK leave the EU" thing.

In a nutshell the four 'main' parties cannot agree on enough common ground to form any coalition with sufficient numbers to form a workable government. Simple. Podemos talk a great deal and they are a pretty charismatic lot but are in love with the idea that they are a charismatic lot. They won't go back on election promises to give Catalonia a referendum on independence and none of the other parties will support this. Impasse.

We forget that this is Spain. Nothing happens here very quickly. People love to talk and think and work around a given subject for ... as long as it takes. Most locals think there will be a new election and Podemos will be punished to the gain of the PSOE. Who knows!!!

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby El Cid » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:20 pm

Lavanda wrote: There's not too much on here, possibly, because the foreign people (us) either don't understand it or don't care. We're too preoccupied with the coming "UK leave the EU" thing.
Plus the fact that we can't vote in national elections.

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Free at Last » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:20 am

Well, now we know - there are to be new elections on 26 June. Do you think the results will be much different this time round, though? Will people be less likely to vote for the new parties like Podemos and Cuidadanos if they fear a repeat of the stalemate, or will the corruption scandals which have continued to dog the PP have an effect on their support (like Manuel Soria's recent resignation)?

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Lavanda » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:59 am

Considering Manos Liamos do not, it seems, have 'clean hands' and the trial of the Infanta and her husband looks like collapsing, and that, it seems, the revelations of the Panama Papers show that most politicians around the globe are corrupt, or at least do not want to pay taxes, I would guess that most Spaniards do not care that the PP seem to be mired in corruption. Who, in government, including in the UK, is not? I think the PP will gain the day and form the next government. Podemos will be punished for not reaching an agreement to form a government of the Left. However, that's only my guess based on what my local friends tell me. I have one friend who told me way back in January that there would be another election. She should get a job somewhere to stop politicians talking, talking and talking to no good effect. (Not sure where the smilies have gone but there should be a laughing face at this point.)

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Pamela1 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:18 am

Am I imagining it or are Spanish people more politically minded than us Brits. When I was in The village near my house a couple of weeks ago the Panama news was much spoken about, I haven't heard anyone mention it here ( back at home ) I was also very entertained by a couple of farming neighbours and some members of my in laws having a very compassionate conversation across my kitchen table about the forthcoming election...None seemed to care for podemos, they told me they were muy mal

katy
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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby katy » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:34 am

Lavanda wrote:Considering Manos Liamos do not, it seems, have 'clean hands' and the trial of the Infanta and her husband looks like collapsing, and that, it seems, the revelations of the Panama Papers show that most politicians around the globe are corrupt, or at least do not want to pay taxes, I would guess that most Spaniards do not care that the PP seem to be mired in corruption. Who, in government, including in the UK, is not? I think the PP will gain the day and form the next government. Podemos will be punished for not reaching an agreement to form a government of the Left. However, that's only my guess based on what my local friends tell me. I have one friend who told me way back in January that there would be another election. She should get a job somewhere to stop politicians talking, talking and talking to no good effect. (Not sure where the smilies have gone but there should be a laughing face at this point.)
I wouldn't say the UK Government is mired in corruption :? Legal tax dodging yes but not defrauding the public out of millions, or would that be billions like Spanish ones. Can't stand Cameron but it was family money after all. Most people do the same to avoid inheritance taxes.
I wonder if the Spaniards will turn away from Podemos and go back to the main parties after being so long in limbo.

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby wollie » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:18 pm

Pamela1 wrote:Am I imagining it or are Spanish people more politically minded than us Brits. When I was in The village near my house a couple of weeks ago the Panama news was much spoken about, I haven't heard anyone mention it here ( back at home ) I was also very entertained by a couple of farming neighbours and some members of my in laws having a very compassionate conversation across my kitchen table about the forthcoming election...None seemed to care for podemos, they told me they were muy mal
"muy mal"
I am curious as to the age profile of the people who not care for podemos.
i am not politically informed enough on Spanish politics to know.
The impression I get is they are disillusioned with the way my generation have handled things like banks, corporate governance and how the political elite just look after themselves and their friends. Because of they want to be a voice for and manage the country for its people, this may not be the case but if this is their way I be with them.

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Unicorn » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:26 pm

I think corruption is hidden in the UK. Look at the new schools academy policy, who is getting a rake of from that? Look at the privatisation of the NHS, for the benefit of city mates and muckers of the government. (Jeremy Hunt wrote a book on privatising the NHS and he took his parliamentary seat from his relative Virginia Bottomley who was or is on the board at BUPA) The sale of the Post Office, who got first bite? Taking state money and putting it into the pockets of the already very rich. It is corruption in plain sight but under a different name.

Whereas it seems it is largely accepted here in Spain and certainly other Med countries - like presidents of communities getting rake off, town hall/government officials from the bottom to the top and generally, although less than before, a cash society. Social media seems to be part of the growing realisation of it in Spain hence the turning away from major parties. Whether that will reverse with this coming election who knows.

Publishing tax returns means nothing as hidden money is just that.

I seem to remember a programme on TV looking at tax declarations of 100 Greek doctors in Athens living in mansions with swimming polls, all declaring income under 12,000 Euros a year.

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby markwilding » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:56 pm

katy wrote:
I wouldn't say the UK Government is mired in corruption :? Legal tax dodging yes but not defrauding the public out of millions, or would that be billions like Spanish ones. Can't stand Cameron but it was family money after all. Most people do the same to avoid inheritance taxes.
I wonder if the Spaniards will turn away from Podemos and go back to the main parties after being so long in limbo.
I have no doubt that their is far less corruption in the UK than Spain but that doesn't mean the UK should be complacent either. Hillsborough shows that it still exists.

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Pamela1 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:28 pm

Wollie,
The people I referred to are over 50 yrs up to 68. Two are farmers, two builders, one electrician and one man who is currently on sick leave due to cancer..

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby wollie » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:08 pm

Thanks for that I fit in there myself... the reason I am curious is I find the younger people everywhere have more a need for change as there is not much of a future if things do not change radically in a good few countries.
Then there are people in my age bracked who have more money than they will ever need, a bit of fairness be nice but it need be thought out everywhere not one country... for what its worth I would gladly contribute if I thought the big and powerful do the same and they have a lot more to offer than modest me with my little "casa en espana"

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby chrissiehope » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:04 pm

Lavanda - re smilies - if you're posting in the new 'quick reply' box, there are no smilies.

However, if you click on 'full editor & preview' then you will find the 'old-style posting page, somplete with happy little faces :D (or not, :thumbdown: as the case may be :wink: ) :thumbup:
Alexandr for President (Squire for PM !)

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katy
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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby katy » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:20 pm

World corruption ratings, Spain has deteriorated.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2015#results-table

Lavanda
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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Lavanda » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:24 am

Corruption is endemic where there is power. According to the above link there have been improvements in Greece — but that may be because there is no money in the country any more. :lol: The papers these past few days are full of Green's 'legal' syphoning money out of BHS and leaving 11,000 workers with damaged, or no, pensions and, probably, jobs, but no worries as it's 'legal'. Same with 'tax avoidance' — it's legal and therefore not corrupt. :roll: Corruption comes in many forms, doesn't it? There's criminal and then there's legal.

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Lavanda » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:25 am

Thanks, Chrissie!!!

katy
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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby katy » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:12 am

Before this useful thread about Spanish politics turns into a what about the UK/Cameron etc. Here is an interesting link to Spanish corruption, titled Spanish corruptions that will take your breath away.

http://www.thelocal.es/20160128/nine-sp ... reath-away

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Lavanda » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:37 pm

It's not exactly new to the Spanish and there are no surprises. Spanish people expect politicians to be corrupt so they are not exactly disappointed when they are. I remember Gil, the Mayor of Marbella, being re-elected as Mayor while serving a prison sentence for corruption. Local people, and in those days my house was only a 30 minute drive from Marbella, said that, yes, he was corrupt but he took less money than his political opponents. We, the British, are horrified at corruption but in some countries it has a very, very long and wide spread tradition. Just think of how many of us bought houses or paid tradespeople cash in hand or black money and without IVA and welcome to the corrupt masses. As tax payers in Spain I suppose we have an interest but, apart from that, why has the thread on political uncertainty been hijacked to become one of Spanish corruption. The corruption does not lead to political uncertainty as far as I can see.

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby Unicorn » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:53 pm

Actually Lavanda I would slightly disagree with you on your last point. I think, as I mentioned before, that with the advent of social media, people are made far more aware of what is going on with a wide range of truth and half-truth and downright lies, of course, being available.

I think the rise of the smaller parties here, more socially aware and not just career politicians, and whatever their political colour would appear to be in it not just for themselves (although I know that could be disputed!) I think that has changed the political map and where people put their cross on the vote.

With a very well educated, aware, and critically, unemployed, cohort of youngsters, there is increasing unrest when the level and scale of the corruption has come to light with obviously not only politicians and business but now the royal family. With the gap between the haves and have-nots widening exponentially.

The deference to authority figures has diminished as their shenanigans get trickled out to the general public.

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Re: Spain political uncertainty

Postby markwilding » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:47 am

I agree.
Older people might be indifferent but younger and middle aged people are absolutely fed up with it and want change. Basically as I see it , change will come slowly as the current dinosaurs move aside and these younger groups move into positions to allow the changes.


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