immigration into ceuta/melilla

[kelly]

I do feel Spain was very wrong to send those people back to Morocco anyone who is prepared to walk such distances to try to improve their lives should be admired. They would have made great workers and help portray Spain as a compassionate country.

[normske]

Kelly. I think Spain did the right thing. My sisters brother is guardia civil and they are really worried about these people coming over. They haven't a clue who these people are as most don't have papers. As he said some could be rapists, murderers, child molesters etc and they have no way of checking their police records. Yes, some may work but as with every group there are always bad apples.

[lis48]

I do feel Spain was very wrong to send those people back to Morocco

And from Ceuta or Melilla they just get the ferry to Malaga and then to the rest of the EU. Kelly how can you allow anyone legally to enter a country and then be able to claim on the state system just because they have walked a long way? Ceuta and Melilla are not just the entry points to Spain but to the whole of the EU. Of course they have to be sent back to Morocco like any other illegal immigrant. The answer for the EU as a whole is for Spain to give Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco and take Gibraltar but that sadly will not happen.

[jane grant]

It's a sad but true fact that countries have to have laws over immigration and policies about the repatriation of illegals. I was in Hong Kong in the 70's when Mao was still alive and the british forces were rounding up sometimes in excess of a 100 illegal immigrants per night and returning them to China for 're-education'. To get to Hong Kong they had walked for days, weeks even months, swum across shark infested waters or braved it on home made rafts for a chance of a 'better life'. Were we right to send tham back ? - I don't know. What I do know is hundreds made it, many then lived a life of poverty, homelessness and resorted to crime and prostitution. A better life?
In the UK they have a policy regarding illegal immigrnts, it's just not quite working. The Spanish can send people back across to main land Africa quite easily, but where do the Brits send their illegals to - or come to that failed assylum seekers. There is no guarantee that these immigrants would have worked, added to the ecomony, paid taxes etc, though every one of them would have sworn on something that that was his intention! So maybe Spain was right to enforce their laws, if it had not, as a member of the EEC, would it have had the right (moral or otherwise) to force other EU countries to abandon their immigration policies in favour of open doors to all?

[cannydanny]

I read an interesting story in the Mirror last week regarding immigration and abuse of asylum (don't know if that statement makes sense) anyway, in my line of work i've seen a lot of unecessary suffering and I like to believe that I am compassionate, within certain parameters.

The whole of Europe is now facing this problem (not least from it's eastern borders). someone commented last week that it would be a good idea in the long term to house would be immigrants in secure but comfortable housing and allow them restricted movement in a humane way, ie freedom of movement to visit relatives etc.
What was also suggested was that immigrants with dodgy or unproven (both the same I guess) backgrounds should be made to prove that they are willing to adopt the culture and laws and of that particular country, they should be given education in the language and customs of that particular country until they can prove that theyreally are prepared to blend in.
I think this is an excellent idea (I can hear the tree huggers yelling "human rights already).
Europe is fast becoming in one respect (lawlessness prevailing) a haven for criminals, and we need to curb this problem and soon!

[hillybilly]

Our Spanish teacher was talking to us about this topic last night and she was actually crying because she found the whole situation so sad.

They haven't a clue who these people are as most don't have papers. As he said some could be rapists, murderers, child molesters etc and they have no way of checking their police records.

This argument could equally be applied to Brits. We no longer have to produce a police clearance form to be granted residencia. Because we are fortunate enought to belong to the EU we all just come and go from one another's countries on our passports and that's no guarantee of our morality or criminal tendencies. Why is somebody from the sub-sahara more likely to be a rapist than someone from England?

[normske]

Why is somebody from the sub-sahara more likely to be a rapist than someone from England?

I wrote they could be, not more likely to be. As you say Brits have passports. If somebody has commited a serious crime sometime in their life don't you think this will be flagged when they move throughout the EU or apply for residencia? And as I also stated, this was the view of a Guardia who has more of an idea of the problems caused by illegal immigrants than you or me.

[cannydanny]

Our Spanish teacher was talking to us about this topic last night and she was actually crying because she found the whole situation so sad.

They haven't a clue who these people are as most don't have papers. As he said some could be rapists, murderers, child molesters etc and they have no way of checking their police records.

This argument could equally be applied to Brits. We no longer have to produce a police clearance form to be granted residencia. Because we are fortunate enought to belong to the EU we all just come and go from one another's countries on our passports and that's no guarantee of our morality or criminal tendencies. Why is somebody from the sub-sahara more likely to be a rapist than someone from England?

A reasonable point Hillybilly, however, I think it could be safely argued that most, probably more that 99% of EU REGISTERED citizens can prove their authenticity and in cases of crime their background and bonafides can be checked quicky and efficiently, whereas a would be immigrant with no proof of background is much more of a liability.
We should not forget that non Europeans (and I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, just a fact) do not think like us and have (in many cases) vastly differing viewpoints of what is socially acceptable and what is not.
Let me tell you a short story which I cannot prove because it was never reported in the press but true nevertheless.
It concerns a Chetchen(sorry about the spelling) who went to live in Russia and openly operated as a criminal, during a gang war with his rivals his daughter was kidnapped and held hostage in order to bring him (the chetchen) into line, a meeting was arranged to exchange the daughter, a sum of money and a promise that the chetchen would move out or accept the Russian boss as his overlord, on meeting them (the daughter and the big russian mafia boss he promptly shot the daughter then said now what do you have.
This is a strange story, but nevertheless true, of course it has nothing to do with nirth Africans but it does highlight that some people of different cultures are not prepared to toe the line and SHOULD therefore be vetted exhaustively before being allowed to live in Europe!

In conclusion and in answer to your question, people from sub sahara countries do not share a common background like we do in Europe, it would be very dangerous to have an open door policy in this situation, both for Europe and world relations!

[samizdat]

just being practical for a moment, what do you think these people are going to do when the get to Spain? The cant speak the language, they have more in common with France and speak that Language (don't see them going there??) they often have no education or job skills. Who is going to feed, house and clothe them??? where is that going to happen?

So we give them subsidized housing, what about all the local Spanish do they just get pushed aside? We give them cash to feed themselves, don't we have enough unemployed Spanish in the country - they don't get unlimited social security payments?

Send them back, they have no cultural ties with Spain and are only economic migrants - they will result in more crime as they rob to get money to live. They serve no useful propose for the Spanish economy - there is a limit to the number of agricultural jobs they can do, and if you want someone to do black market jobs, there are millions of Eastern Europeans (able to work with EU visas) and South Americans - who do share a culture and speak Spanish already.

The only time I see Africans around working is the looky-lookey men selling counterfeit DVD, watches, handbags.

[spanish hopes]

Counterfeit??? and I thought I'd got a bargain.

Africa is also the continent which has the biggest AIDS problem in the world. Men have sex with children in some tribes because the witch doctor tells them that it will cure AIDS. The arguments about cultural beliefs and differences is a strong one. The arguments about escaping dangerous regimes is a strong one. Economic Migration is a strong argument but only for the migrants. Only when a country has enough money so that its own people do not live below the poverty line should we be accepting economic migrants.
We should continue to offer a save haven to those who seek asylum because their lives are in danger from the regime of their own country, but there has to be an end somewhere to open door mentality whether the PC mafia like it or not.

[hillybilly]

what do you think these people are going to do when the get to Spain? The cant speak the language, they have more in common with France and speak that Language.....they have no cultural ties with Spain

You're talking about the Brits I take it?

Africa is also the continent which has the biggest AIDS problem in the world. Men have sex with children in some tribes because the witch doctor tells them that it will cure AIDS. The arguments about cultural beliefs and differences is a strong one.

Yes, and the Pope tells Spanish Catholics that they can't use condoms....

[spanish hopes]

Yes, and the Pope tells Spanish Catholics that they can't use condoms.

Yes and this proves the difference in cultures. I know which guidline I would prefer.

[kelly]

antenna 3 just ran a story of a Spanish man with a car load of food and drink who secretly goes across into Morocco to give the food to these poor people some whom have been living in the forest for 1 year attempting to get into Spain. What a great chap he is.
This immigration is different from Sangatte as they are not coming from a wealthy country as France is, but from a destitute impoverished land they are human beings who deserve a chance

[cannydanny]

antenna 3 just ran a story of a Spanish man with a car load of food and drink who secretly goes across into Morocco to give the food to these poor people some whom have been living in the forest for 1 year attempting to get into Spain. What a great chap he is.
This immigration is different from Sangatte as they are not coming from a wealthy country as France is, but from a destitute impoverished land they are human beings who deserve a chance

Kelly, the story may have been run on Antenna 3 but I doubt the truth of it, If indeed it's true, not only is he a great chap but he deserves the Nobel peace prize!
Try getting through Moroccan customs with a bootful of food and see how much of it is left after "confiscation"

[normske]

Spanish. I agree with you there. It seems the 'spanish people' are not really included in this governments policy. Like a bunch of kids they seem to be be doing everything that their predecessors refused to do (just like the UK!)

All the Spanish people i've spoken too are gutted they voted for this party so all the extra votes will come in handy. Its a real pity because a lot of people (Spanish) are thinking Spain is going downhill rapidly.

lets hope this doesn't happen

[spanish hopes]

the only problem normske is that as in the UK, it doesn't matter who you vote for, the politicians always get in.
I put them in the same category as property sales people, lawyers, drug addicts and burglars. They are all dishonest and not to be trusted.

[fullmonty]

The socialist government in the UK

Errr....which governemt would that be then? Whatever anyone thinks of Tony Bliar (not a typo) "socialist" would be one of the last words I would have thought could be used to describe him. In many ways (as the Liberal Democrats are constantly pointing out), he and his government are to the right of Thatcher.

I would not be surprised if they did not repeat the process prior to the next election in order to create another batch of socialist voters.

Genuine question - does residencia give the right to vote in Spanish general elections? I never realised this. What is the process for registration?

Dave

[lis48]

Hong Kong in the 70's when Mao was still alive and the british forces were rounding up sometimes in excess of a 100 illegal immigrants per night and returning them to China for 're-education'.

As Jane Grant said, this policy did not work for HK. They just kept trying again the next night. The Illegal Immigrants that managed to elude arrest went underground, unable to seek even medical attention for fear of being caught and sent back. They were exploited as cheap labour, too scared to complain. Then in 1979/80 the gov introduced a "touch down policy" allowing any II who had crossed the border without capture to apply for ID and therefore work normally and receive benefits. Initially this encouraged a flood of new immigrants but border patrols were increased substantially and the level declined. I think the key can only be vigilance at the borders however inhumane it sounds and residencias given to the ones who get past. I'm in Melilla in two weeks time so will report back!

[Guest]

It seems its going to get worse, according to this.

http://www.iht.com/getina/files/282309.html

[hillybilly]

Genuine question - does residencia give the right to vote in Spanish general elections? I never realised this. What is the process for registration? Dave

http://www.andalucia.com/spain/governme ... tution.htm