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Grouser
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Postby Grouser » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:09 pm

Moving soon, those people of whom you speak are victims of an unfortunate, but well meaning educational experiment where emphasis was put on creative expression, while grammar, spelling and punctuation were largely ignored. It was recognised that the experiment had failed about eight years ago, I think and teaching has since more or less returned to the three R's. My older son was a victim of it and couldn't string a proper sentence together until he went to University, while the younger one has no problem and even does apostrophes if it's important enough and he can be bothered.
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Postby citymike » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:30 pm

Moving Soon wrote:If that's the case, Cassandra, I will be looking out for job applications from Wolverhampton graduates from now on! :)
I'd hate for you to be responsible for any recruitment in any company in which I have an interest. I usually find that pedants are rarely creative and having associated themselves far too much with the established order are unwilling to stake their reputation on anything that is considered outside the norm.

I'm sure you are aware that Tom Peters in his books "In Search of Excellence" and "A Passion for Excellence" emphasised how important customer service and innovation is to the survival and strenght of a company and I fail to see how selecting candidates on their ability to use an apostrophe correctly would enhance a company in that endeavour.

Personally, I would expect a secretary or a typist to know the correct use of apostrophes, and if they were particularly pedantic about the issue I would assume that they had reached their natural level within the organisation.

Cheer's

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Postby Shukran » Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:20 pm

Ooooh! Get you! How arrogant you sound. It's just as well that I didn't see your application when I was working - you wouldn't have got through the first stage if you think that presentation and correct English usage is not important. Sheer laziness I'd say and a case of one large chip on the shoulder because you can't do it yourself so you think that you're 'above' it.
Since I gave up hope I feel much better!

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Postby Cassandra » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:33 pm

A good command of English (or whatever the native language is), and caring enough to use it correctly, shows attention to detail so I guess it would come down to whether that matters to your business or not. Incidentally, one of the lecturers most insistent on correct use of apostrophes was Yugoslavian, she couldn't understand why British students couldn't get it right when she could despite English being her 2nd language.

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Postby citymike » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:09 pm

I repeat, I would expect a secretary or typist to deal with the mundane whilst I attended to the more cerebral, creative, or innovative challenges within the organisation.

It's not a matter of being 'above' people, I appreciate that we all have different skillsets and I would hope that we would all have ample opportunity to put that skillset to it's most productive use. My original post was more concerned with my disbelief that people could appear so snobby and 'above' other people simply because they know how to use an apostrophe!!

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Postby peteroldracer » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:17 pm

For myself, and I am sure others, if I see an advertisement, or receive a letter, where there are mis-spellings or incorrect grammar, I assume that the same lack of care will be, or will have been taken over whatever is the core function of the business or the job of the sender.
If it doesn't matter about the English used, it may well be that the hotel booking you want for the 9th will have been reserved for the 19th, the meal for 8 at 10 will have the restaurant expecting 10 at 8, and the 3.45 metre x 6.80 metre pool will be whatever!
The builder of our house (Spanish) looked at us with genuine astonishment several times during our build when we pointed out that a room was not exactly square, or there was a gap down the side of a door frame - he said, sincerely, that perfection was not possible and should not be expected!
Sorry, citymike, but your attitude not only condones sloppiness and incompetence in language, but attempts to excuse and even advocate it!!
I don't for example expect the packing hand in the warehouse to be able to write an update of War & Peace, but I do expect anyone within a company whose job it is to communicate to be able to do it to a high standard. The packer will read the Sun (reading age of eight) but the sales manager should whip through the Telegraph!
I, for one, can and do judge a company partly by its presentation (which includes its letters, brochures, and ads) and if it is found wanting, take my business elsewhere.
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Shukran
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Postby Shukran » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:54 pm

citymike wrote:I repeat, I would expect a secretary or typist to deal with the mundane whilst I attended to the more cerebral, creative, or innovative challenges within the organisation.
Your arrogance knows no bounds. I bet you're a right pain to little 'mundane' secretaries who know no better than to sit and type all day. Get a life citymike instead of having your head up your own a**e!
Since I gave up hope I feel much better!

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Postby pete_l » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:15 pm

Cassandra wrote:Incidentally, one of the lecturers most insistent on correct use of apostrophes was Yugoslavian, she couldn't understand why British students couldn't get it right when she could despite English being her 2nd language.
I'd hazard a guess that she was taught english in the "traditional" way,
with lessons that included the rules of grammar. A lot of children in the
UK are merely taught to express themselves in english classes. The theory
being that you don't want to supress their creativity.
citymike wrote: I would expect a secretary or typist to deal with the mundane whilst I attended to the more cerebral, creative, or innovative challenges within the organisation
This concept of a secretary "take a letter Miss Jones" is somewhat
outdated these days. For a start in my experience of organisations of
all sizes, since the advent of word-processing, everyone types their own
material. Having someone else write what you speak is an expensive
and inflexible luxury that most organisations can neither justify nor afford.

If someone does have a secretary, that person's duties are more of a
gatekeeper/bouncer (keeping the underlings from wasting the boss's
time) and is responsible for managing an executive's
appointments. These exec's don't produce material: they read summaries
of other peoples' and make decisions based on the advice they receive.

On a practical level, how would you judge a potential assistant's
spelling abilities, if you couldn't spell yourself?

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Moving Soon
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Postby Moving Soon » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:41 am

I've worked with quite a few executives/managers in my time who thought they were far too important to care about minutiae and should spend their time being cerebral and creative. In my experience they were the ones who inevitably messed up every project they were involved in or would have done if the "underlings" were not watching their backs and effectively doing their jobs for them, without earning the megabucks these superstars commanded. They usually move jobs at least every two years before their basic incompetence becomes all too obvious even to their senior manager and go and cause havoc somewhere else, all in the name of career progression of course.

As others have said, most managers these days are responsible for writing their own correspondence as the old-fashioned secretary has gone the way of private offices, long liquid lunches and other "perks" of the former executive lifestyle.

I share the view that written correspondence going to clients, customers, members of the public, etc. is part of the image the organisation has in the outside world and it does not inspire me with confidence when I receive a letter from any organisation which is poorly written and littered with spelling errors. My standards are too high to allow this to happen in any department I am responsible for managing, and allowing people who are not capable of producing accurate written work to get through the recruitment process would simply mean that much of my time and that of my staff would be wasted in having to correct work and have it redone following their appointment. That is not a good use of my organisation's resources.

Since I've achieved the highest possible appraisal rating every year in every job I've had since formal performance appraisal was introduced my managers obviously don't share Citymike's dim view of my abilities. This year's performance related pay bonus is going to come in very handy with the forthcoming move!

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silver
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Postby silver » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:46 am

What % of the English population...can spell correctly 100% English :?:
On a practical level, how would you judge a potential assistant's
spelling abilities, if you couldn't spell yourself?
On a practical level...no one would check.
I myself can´t spell for toffee...so spelling mistakes are not important to me... and imagine that spelling, is only highly regarded, by those who can spell correctly.
No muerdes la mano que te da de comer.

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peteroldracer
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Postby peteroldracer » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:06 am

Silver - while I have great respect for the useful information and the normally accurate and good friendly way you present it in this forum, your statement
I myself can´t spell for toffee...so spelling mistakes are not important to me... and imagine that spelling, is only highly regarded, by those who can spell correctly.
is a bit like a thief or benefit fraudster saying 'morality is not important to me so I imagine that honesty is only highly regarded by those who don't steal'.!
Slack standards in English are a reflection of slack standards elsewhere in a person, and they will be judged by those who have higher standards on that basis.
I also think you have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek, as you either use the spell checker, or are a lot better than you make out, going by your usual postings! :wink:
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Postby Beachcomber » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:21 am

When, at 18 years old, I started my job that became my career for 20 years reports were bashed out on an old Olivetti typewriter and if you typed too quickly all the keys got stuck but if a report contained a spelling mistake or grammatical or if you tried to slip past one that had been corrected with correction fluid or an eraser it would be sent back for retyping.

I lost count of the number of times I got almost to the end of a closely typed foolscap page only to make a silly mistake that meant starting again from scratch.

This probably set my standard for life; much more so than any English teacher at my school could have instilled in me and accounts for that fact that any official body or professional person that writes me a letter or email that is not perfect in every way gets very short shrift!

samizdat
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Postby samizdat » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:42 am

ah Beachy you can bring back the memories! I had a similar apprenticeship in English, after you've retyped something a couple of times and got covered in carbon paper grease you soon learn to take the time to spell and punctuate the document correctly.


IBM electric typewriters with the spinning heads came next then horrible word processors which necessitated trying to remember and type a whole line while composing the next line in your head.......... aarrggghhhh Thank you Steve Jobs for inventing the Apple computer.!


I'm with Beachcomber, I would never send out a letter without spell checking it and if I receive a letter full of mistakes I would assume that is it reflective of the service I would receive from that company.

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Postby Bongtrees » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:58 am

Shukran wrote:
citymike wrote:I repeat, I would expect a secretary or typist to deal with the mundane whilst I attended to the more cerebral, creative, or innovative challenges within the organisation.
Your arrogance knows no bounds. I bet you're a right pain to little 'mundane' secretaries who know no better than to sit and type all day. Get a life citymike instead of having your head up your own a**e!
Shukran, read again and you will see that CityMike referred to the work being mundane, not the secretary.

If everyone stuck to their own jobs perhaps they would learn to do them well.

Nowadays there are definitely too many Chiefs and not enough Indians which is why standards have fallen so far and so fast.

I take exception to bad spelling and grammar and are of the opinion that its a reflection on the writer and his companies attitude that they cant even be bothered and/or are too lazy to use the spell checker.

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Postby Beachcomber » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:23 pm

Bongtrees wrote: ....they cant even be....
Oh, Bongtrees, I wouldn't normally do this and am only doing so in jest. :oops:

Moving Soon
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Postby Moving Soon » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:31 pm

Doesn't it make you feel like a museum piece when you remember the way things used to be done?

I learned to type on a manual typewriter with the keys covered by blank caps, and sometimes had to type to the musical accompaniment of the William Tell Overture which reduced my best friend and I to helpless giggles in the back row. Oh the joys of rubbing holes in the paper with typing erasers, using the horrible Gestetner duplicator with the pink correction fluid and getting covered in ink up to the elbows, and so on.

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peteroldracer
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Postby peteroldracer » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:36 pm

Oh Bongtrees................"I take exception to bad spelling and grammar and are of the opinion that its a reflection on the writer and his companies attitude that they cant even be bothered and/or are too lazy to use the spell checker. "

You of course meant " I...am.....it's.....company's.........can't....."

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

If you ever take up a job working in glass houses, please don't throw any stones!
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Postby Beachcomber » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:42 pm

Moving Soon wrote:Doesn't it make you feel like a museum piece when you remember the way things used to be done?
How about taking the output tape from a Telex machine and feeding it into a Teleprinter. I used to be able to read all those holes. :D

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silver
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Postby silver » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:58 pm

I also think you have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek, as you either use the spell checker,
Most of the time I do use the spell checker..
Slack standards in English are a reflection of slack standards elsewhere in a person, and they will be judged by those who have higher standards on that basis.
I do not think that slack spelling standards are a refection of other human standards...and know that some choose to judge on that basis..but I do not agree with their judgment.
I wrote judgement...it was a mistake.. corrected to...judgment... but...it does not look right to me.
:oops: :oops: :oops:
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Postby Bongtrees » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:59 pm

Beachcomber wrote:
Bongtrees wrote: ....they cant even be....
Oh, Bongtrees, I wouldn't normally do this and am only doing so in jest. :oops:
No idea how this Spanish keyboard works and that cow checker was not working javascript:emoticon(':wink:')

Now you know why I am a boss who appreciates the typing skills of his secretary (LOL)

Just checked the cow checker and it does not correct or offer alternative word.


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