English

[nevada smith]

'judgement' is correct and acceptable...

[peteroldracer]

Telex! Now that seems to be from an age one step up from signalling with mirrors! I used to have to communicate with my employer's head office in Chicago with telex - good for getting round the time difference before emails solved that one. The number of times that the tape snagged, so I had to go right back to the beginning and re-input everything.....and I could never do beachcomber's trick of reading the dots!
The earliest typesetting machines (I worked for AM, which owned Varityper) worked on punched tape, and were the size of mainframe computers...........but there again, before that I set type by hand using a composing stick and lead line spacers. How many of today's PC users know why the vertical spacing between lines is called "leading" - pronounced "ledding", not "leeding"?
And of course "upper case" and "lower case" comes from the drawers, called 'cases', divided up into sections (varying in size according to expected normal letter usage) where the type was kept, the case with the CAPITAL letters being kept on a rack above the case with the other letters in.
The printers where I first worked had seven or eight Monotype typesetters, (all men of course in those unionised days) who sat at keyboards like giant typewriters, every keystroke causing a mould to drop into place in a line. When sufficient had been arranged, these moulds were filled with molten lead, producing assembled lines of individual type once cooled. These then went to compositors standing at 'stones' - actually steel slabs, who enclosed the type in frames (called chases), correcting any mis-keyed letters as they went, and making the whole up into pages. After taking a pull - an impression on paper with ink - this was read by proofreaders, corrections made, further proofs, until everyone was happy.
It is difficult to give an impression of productivity, but there were the Monotype men, around 30 compositors, 4 proofreaders, plus the managers, teaboys, people that made the blocks from which logos and pictures were printed, and the printers themselves in the press room - all to produce one monthly magazine and lots of City print like Memorandum & Articles of Association, share issue documentation.
Nowadays, there would be less than one tenth of that staff, and most of the origination will be done by the customer and sent in on disk or via email, with proofreading being done by people like citymike and Bongtrees..........

[Colinm]

(I worked for AM, which owned Varityper)

Peteroldracer, my father also worked for AM and I still have fond memories of going into the office on a Saturday morning with him and watching the Multilith 1250 being set up! What about the old addressing machines with all those metal plates!!

My first job was in a small printing press and your posting has reminded me of the noise of the Linotype and the strange but lovely smell from melting down the used type, skimming it, and reforming it into blocks!

I suppose we are a small group that think of a machine rather than a city when someone mentions 'Heidelberg'!!

[Beachcomber]

...This concept of a secretary "take a letter Miss Jones" is somewhat outdated these days. For a start in my experience of organisations of all sizes, since the advent of word-processing, everyone types their own material. Having someone else write what you speak is an expensive and inflexible luxury that most organisations can neither justify nor afford....

What? You mean they don't have audio typists any more. What happened to working your way through the typing pool or trying to hit the jackpot by setting yourself up for a dirty weekend in Bournemouth?

I suppose that would be classed as sexual harassment now but I met very few nubile young typists who didn't enjoy it as much as I did.

[Moving Soon]

When desktop PCs were introduced at the major trade union I was working for at the time, the Regional Officers (exclusively male) thought that using email meant that they could look over their secretary's shoulder to read their messages and then dictate their replies and have the secretary send them. They were soon disabused of that notion!

When voicemail came in it caused another furore as they objected to having to press a couple of buttons and listen to the messages themselves, instead of calls being put through to the secretary who would take and pass on the ones she couldn't deal with herself, placate angry members who they hadn't got back to previously, or tell diplomatic lies if they were in the pub instead of where they should have been.

And when the office went open plan, well, you would have thought the world was coming to an end. One bloke had a tatty old armchair in his office (inherited from someone who had retired about 10 years earlier) and every day at 1.00 pm he sat in it and listened to The Archers. In all seriousness, he complained that he wouldn't be able to do that in an open plan office!

[Shukran]

My last job was working as PA/Directors' Secretary for a company employing in excess of 25,000 people. I agree that over the years a secretarial role has changed beyond all recognition, for the good. No longer do we spend all our time churning out letter after letter, filing pieces of paper and making the tea. All three of the directors I worked for, Chairman, Managing Director and Finance Director, did most of the 'mundane' work themselves - basic letters, emails and all their own filing! A director's secretary was deemed far too important to deal with such things when there were exhibitions and conferences to arrange, flights & travel to sort, monthly newsletters & brochures to design, spreadsheets to keep up to date etc. I've had all three make my tea and coffee on the days where they were hoping for miracles with massive reports to sent out in such a short time. They appreciated fully everything I did for them.

Going back many years I too can remember the old typing rubbers and carbon paper which went between the letter and the filing copy. Remembering to remove the pieces of paper between the copies after you had erased a typing error was the main problem.

We thought we'd made it to the top when we were provided with an electronic typewriter, until we realised that we were then given twice as much work to do because the machine was far superior. When I think all that way back, I realise how lucky secretaries are now with all the facilities at hand and how their jobs have evolved for the better. I'm thankful that I worked for a company who respected my position and the work I put into helping make the company as efficient as it was. It's nice to know that they still keep begging me to come back as they now have a younger model as my resplacement and they're really regretting it.

[citymike]

For myself, and I am sure others, if I see an advertisement, or receive a letter, where there are mis-spellings or incorrect grammar, I assume that the same lack of care will be, or will have been taken over whatever is the core function of the business or the job of the sender.

We're agreed.

If it doesn't matter about the English used, it may well be that the hotel booking you want for the 9th will have been reserved for the 19th, the meal for 8 at 10 will have the restaurant expecting 10 at 8, and the 3.45 metre x 6.80 metre pool will be whatever!
The builder of our house (Spanish) looked at us with genuine astonishment several times during our build when we pointed out that a room was not exactly square, or there was a gap down the side of a door frame - he said, sincerely, that perfection was not possible and should not be expected!

I do care about the English used but the misuse of an apostrophe is rarely important except in customer facing roles. The examples you have given aren't about written grammar but verbal communication skills, understanding what 8 at 10 means in the example of a restaurant and what square means and how it can be achieved by a builder.

Sorry, citymike, but your attitude not only condones sloppiness and incompetence in language, but attempts to excuse and even advocate it!!
I don't for example expect the packing hand in the warehouse to be able to write an update of War & Peace, but I do expect anyone within a company whose job it is to communicate to be able to do it to a high standard.

I agree that good communication is important but I don't believe that the misuse of an apostrophe is ever important in internal communication.

The packer will read the Sun (reading age of eight) but the sales manager should whip through the Telegraph!

Well, this is one of my bugbears. I value critical reasoning, logical thinking, and commonsense far more than I do the ability to use an apostrophe correctly and I rarely see the former skills in a Telegraph reader although I am sure they are perfectly trained in the latter. And being able to use an apostrophe is the result of training rather than the result of an education, in my opinion.

I, for one, can and do judge a company partly by its presentation (which includes its letters, brochures, and ads) and if it is found wanting, take my business elsewhere.

I agree, which is why I would use the secretary or typist when dealing in written communication with a customer.

[citymike]

I would expect a secretary or typist to deal with the mundane whilst I attended to the more cerebral, creative, or innovative challenges within the organisation

This concept of a secretary "take a letter Miss Jones" is somewhat
outdated these days. For a start in my experience of organisations of
all sizes, since the advent of word-processing, everyone types their own
material. Having someone else write what you speak is an expensive
and inflexible luxury that most organisations can neither justify nor afford.

I can see that everyone types their own material but that is generally internal memos or emails. When we communicate through email we are much more informal, I find. External communication is much more formal and usually handled by someone experienced in dealing with the customer directly. If it were advertising or a mailshot I would expect a review by many people within the organisation.

On a practical level, how would you judge a potential assistant's
spelling abilities, if you couldn't spell yourself?
Pete

I think spelling is important, I'm not too sure about apostrophes in most circumstances. But to answer your question, I would employ a Telegraph reader I imagine! Sorry, that was a joke.

[katy]

What are you all like Didn't think secretaries as such existed anymore thought they were all admin assistants or PA's.

[peteroldracer]

But katy, you have tapped in to the time-warp of....retired gentlemen?. Admin assistants and PAs are frightening beasties of a different sexual orientation who wear tights and talk of sexual harrassment , whereas secretaries and typists flutter their eyelashes adoringly at bosses and wear stockings and suspenders!

[nevada smith]

peteroldracer,
got my start setting type into a 'job stick' out of
a 'california' job case in 1960...
the term 'leading' is still used in desktop publishing software...

[pete_l]

where to start?

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9171/itvsg5.jpg

[peteroldracer]

v.good pete_l - could that be an Irish pub?
Stand by for the axe to fall though from admin - this thread has attracted 3000+ views, and popular threads seem to tread on someone's corns!
I must admit though ('Guilty, Your Honour!) it has got a little bit away from relevance to life in Andalucia!

[silver]

signalling with mirrors

Made me think about the future communication ...
emotions.. for eg I don't think it will be too long before many other gifs will be used to replace words..all internationally understood..an international unspoken lingo..like road signs..speeds up the message..which is what the new generations want....

[claire4james]

But katy, you have tapped in to the time-warp of....retired gentlemen?. Admin assistants and PAs are frightening beasties of a different sexual orientation who wear tights and talk of sexual harrassment , whereas secretaries and typists flutter their eyelashes adoringly at bosses and wear stockings and suspenders!

I suddenly want to replace my admin assistant with a secretary!

[Moving Soon]

Trouble is, any such "secretary" who ever existed (if they did really exist and it's not just a classic case of fond remembrance of how good things were in the olden days), they must be over 50 by now, so that might curb your enthusiasm a bit!

Even in the late '70s when I was a secretary the spectre of feminism was already raising its head and I can remember many an office row about "it's not my job to make the tea, I'm not a servant" going on. And Ricky Gervais thinks he invented something new!

[Grouser]

Who would have thought the humble apostrophe could generate so much wind. Lighten up you office types. As for spelling, it's not so long ago it was an arbitrary thing. When it was fixed it was done so without logic. Let's hear it for foneticks. Let's hear it for dislecksicks (sic). As for spell checkers, try the spelling cow here and what do you get. You get Amerikan. Who needs color when they want colour, eh?

The point of language is it's a tool for communication. One of its wonderful aspects is the fact that you can mangle and distort it hugely and still get your point over. Its versatility lends itself to creativity. Rools ar ment to be broken. As for job applications, who knows who wrote the letter you got anyway. If it's perfect, the chances are it was mum or dad, and in any case if I'm running a joinery company I don't give a rat's ...... about spelling and punctuation, it's dovetail joints I'm concerned with.

[silver]

Grouser... you put that down very well

[nevada smith]

correct spelling...?
correct grammar...?
google up "the comma and the contract"...

[silver]

google up "the comma and the contract"...

Pay an expert to revise all commas before signing...anything.