Disappearing History

Looking for information on a place in Andalucia or simply asking for advice on somewhere to visit? Post here and someone out there may know the answer.
BENIDORM
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3765
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:15 pm
Location: Granada Province

Disappearing History

Postby BENIDORM » Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:41 pm

Did I mention my passionate interest in History ? :think:

Well I wasn't going to comment about the problems in several countries with regard to the vandalising and distruction of historical monuments, but it worries me that similar mindless distruction could happen in Spain.

History happened , it can't be changed , so wherever we live I feel it's so important to preserve all history, Warts and All, everyone needs to have the chance to learn about the past, and it's not correct to cherrypick the nice bits, it's really important to be able to understand about the Good and Bad things that happened in the past.
How are future generations going to be able to understand the mistakes made by the past generations and of course it's also important to note that many of the famous people now being targeted actually did good things as well as bad things.
I should mention that I'm not in anyway looking at this in a political or racist mode, far from it- I detest all forms of racism and bullying.
In Spain we don't have to search that far back to find 'wrongdoers', but it was a different time with different idiology and if you study Roman history , which surrounds us everywhere here in Spain, you would soon notice slavery and very cruel acts carried out by so called 'leaders'.

For anyone able to visit the Museum ( Albert Dock ) in Liverpool , I would recommend spending sometime studying the excellent information about slavery that's available there it really does explain it all well.

In the 1950's I was taken by my grandfather to visit some underground storage rooms in the dockside at Birkenhead, where slaves often spent months chained to the walls with little or no light, horrific.!

Maybe I'm rambling and ranting a bit now, but I hate the thought of mindless thugs anywhere getting away with so much destruction...
What do other members think. ?
Regards,
Gordonious

User avatar
gerryh
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 7535
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:17 pm
Location: Cajiz, Malaga

Re: Disappearing History

Postby gerryh » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:41 pm

Agree with you Gordon.
But perhaps it would be an idea to have additional plaques on some of the statues?
They, probably, already have one extolling the good things they did but what about another one stating the bad/ controversial things they did?
Let the viewer make up their own mind about the person?
Cheers
Gerry
Gerry Harris

olive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3482
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:13 pm
Location: Poniente, Granada

Re: Disappearing History

Postby olive » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:23 pm

I agree with you gerry, that was my thought. However if the statues have to come down then maybe all the buildings should too like concert halls. Just put up a prefab in the modern style.

We were talking about how the Moors and Christian festivals in Southern Spain will fare. Will they be banned? Will the outcome be chamged? Holland has a problem too with their popular Black Pete festival. In fact where do you draw the line?, the conquistadors didn't cover themselves in glory either. There are however some wonderful legacies in Spain paid for by their exploits.

If you are ever in Hull , there is a well constructed museum to slavery. Very thought provoking.

katy
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 12362
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:45 pm

Re: Disappearing History

Postby katy » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:20 pm

Columbus’s head has already gone on an American statue. Don’t think Europe is as concerned as our middle class whites though. Lots of slave caves in Kenya and Tanzania to visit, all founded by Middle East traders in humans. Where will it end...it could be you if one of your ancestors invested on the stock markets a few hundred years ago. On the other hand the wokes may find some other cause, started with the me too brigade and moved on to extinction rebellion they are all the same crowd. Maybe nothing tO watch on TV soon.
Agree with Gerry but I doubt it would appease the hysterical masses.

elusive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am
Location: East of Malaga

Re: Disappearing History

Postby elusive » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:53 pm

For anyone able to visit the Museum ( Albert Dock ) in Liverpool , I would recommend spending sometime studying the excellent information about slavery that's available there it really does explain it all well.

----------------------

I went there a good many years ago. It was very impressive. I remember going to the wilberforce one in hull on a school trip many moons ago aswell. Quite something to see how humans can act towards each other. Personally i think statues such as colston should be in museums where their history etc can be shown/discussed warts and all. Personally i was shocked to hear such a statue of such a person was in bristol. a staue celebrating a man who donated money,money that was made in the most evil way.there had been much argument about it over the years.
There is also this obsession with the cancel culture and me too movement which has become nothing but a lynchmob. History should be discussed. Especially in schools. The empire good and bad. Spain is very similar to the uk in that sense

I dont agree with mob rule. Decisions should be made in a democratic way but it seems the recent events bought it to a head.it should have been delt with long ago. Personally i think if ppl are more upset about it coming down than the fact it was there in the first place then there is thee problem.

BENIDORM
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3765
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:15 pm
Location: Granada Province

Re: Disappearing History

Postby BENIDORM » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:41 am

THANKS ALL, for your good input , thoughts and suggestions :thumbup:

I've always thought that a famous persons life achievements, good and bad should be made available for study.

Some statues should be moved to more appropriate sites such as museums, but where do you 'draw the line ' as others have stated ?
Many of the slave traders gave much of their money to establish hospitals and schools etc., perhaps they had 'second thoughts' , or guilt complexes ..who knows. ?.
It really does worry me though how quickly left and right extremists can activate and generate so much hate.

All of my life I've tried to encourage people to work together and I loath and detest all forms of violence , racism and greed .
It bothers me that when I leave this life it will be an even worse place to be than when I first entered it.... :(
Regards,
Gordon

Manchesteral
Resident
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Disappearing History

Postby Manchesteral » Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:58 am

Every adult member of the human race should read Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury !

Beachcomber
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 10195
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:11 pm
Location: Guadalhorce Valley

Re: Disappearing History

Postby Beachcomber » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:10 am

...Together, of course, with George Orwell's 1984. I was going to add another reference but I dare not!

User avatar
Wicksey
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:21 pm
Location: Axarquia coast

Re: Disappearing History

Postby Wicksey » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:33 am

I agree with all the comments on here. We have given up watching the Biased Broadcasting Corporation's news, it's all driving us a bit round the bend. Pandering to the woke minority and not giving a balanced view seems to be the norm these days.

All lives matter, and instead of vandalism against statues of people long, long gone, perhaps it would be better to put some of their energies into the awful things that go on today. There is modern day slavery and if they are so concerned about Black Lives then what about the poor girls still being brutalised by FGM? Will we see the statues here of the conquistadores taken down due to what they did? The Roman empire was pretty bad too so what about everything that celebrates and represents them ..... you cannot change the past, only learn from it.

elusive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am
Location: East of Malaga

Re: Disappearing History

Postby elusive » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:03 pm

I very much enjoy your posts gordon. Always thought provoking

------------------
Many of the slave traders gave much of their money to establish hospitals and schools etc., perhaps they had 'second thoughts' , or guilt complexes ..who knows. ?.
It really does worry me though how quickly left and right extremists can activate and generate so much hate.
-----------
Personally i cant see it. Unless of course it was documented. They were richly compensated for their "loses" when the trade was stopped. giving money to charity etc doesnt justify or legitimise how they got it. Theres still blood all over it.

The harewoods in leeds,the queens cousin estate was built off slavery. The previous earl whos now dead openly accepted that and put money into the west indian community in Leeds. He was well liked and respected as it certainly wasnt his fault but he didnt want the wrongs hidden and wanted to give something back.

katy
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 12362
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:45 pm

Re: Disappearing History

Postby katy » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:34 pm

Claimed that google have blacked out Churchill's photo on the page of British PM's. Lot of pandering to the usual mob. BLM has been taken over by the usual mainly white middle class rent a crowd. The most black killings in the UK are committed by other black people.

Whicksey agree. what is happening in some parts of the world re. FGM; child marriages etc is modern day slavery not that which happened over 200 years ago. BTW it wasn't just USA and UK either.

User avatar
chrissiehope
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 7:52 pm
Location: Cheshire & near Antequera

Re: Disappearing History

Postby chrissiehope » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:55 pm

Wicksey wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:33 am
the woke minority
I've seen this word a few times but have no idea what it means ! I'd be grateful if somebody would educate me ;-)
Alexandr for President (Squire for PM !)

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read (Groucho Marx)

elusive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am
Location: East of Malaga

Re: Disappearing History

Postby elusive » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:36 pm

Depends if you want the original or the now definition!!
Always makes me think of the me too lynch mobers. Where everyone must be believed regardless even if their claims are clearly B.S and god help anyone who questions them or thinks due process is the cornerstone of a justice system.

Beachcomber
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 10195
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:11 pm
Location: Guadalhorce Valley

Re: Disappearing History

Postby Beachcomber » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:40 pm

A bit of wriggling from Google regarding Katy's Winston Churchill reference:

https://support.google.com/websearch/th ... 7714?hl=en

https://i.imgur.com/cQniuVj.png

They blanked out Churchill and left Hitler and Mussolini in the wartime leaders gallery. How bizarre.

If it hadn't been for Churchill these people who are currently engaged in riots, looting, malicious damage, assaults and other gross criminality would never have had the opportunity to carry out this inexcusable behaviour assuming, of course, that they would ever have been allowed to exist.

markwilding
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 6868
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:02 am
Location: Bilbao Spain

Re: Disappearing History

Postby markwilding » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:44 pm

Beachcomber wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:10 am
...Together, of course, with George Orwell's 1984. I was going to add another reference but I dare not!
I'm not sure why you think that way. I have read both books as well as Orwell's Animal farm.

You' might also be surprised to know I have read other books you have recommended on this forum. One I particularly enjoyed was ' Winter in Madrid'

Lavanda
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 4696
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:42 pm
Location: Cáceres Province, Extremadura

Re: Disappearing History

Postby Lavanda » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:13 pm

I agree with everything everyone has posted here. Slaves have existed since man crawled out from caves and still exist today. Who is going to march and demonstrate against forced marriages, child marriage, FGM, as Katy wrote, forced sex-trafficking and all the other dreadful things happening TODAY. By all means take down a few statues, remove portraits from galleries, blow up stately homes, trash the National Trust, vandalise the Alhambra and destroy the Mezquita in Cordoba and never, never eat Cadbury's chocolate ever again BUT it will not alter the past. The past contains horrible things as well as noble ones. It is also a fact that the biggest slavers were other tribes in Africa who captured their enemies for the American and European slave market and the Arabs were also neck-deep in the trade.

User avatar
Wicksey
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:21 pm
Location: Axarquia coast

Re: Disappearing History

Postby Wicksey » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:14 pm

chrissiehope wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:55 pm
Wicksey wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:33 am
the woke minority
I've seen this word a few times but have no idea what it means ! I'd be grateful if somebody would educate me ;-)
From the online dictionary: aware, especially of social problems such as racism and inequality. But it also seems to be used for people who are what we call the 'professionally offended'. People who scour the TV to then say there's not enough minorities/disabled/transgender people presenting the news/on adverts/in sport etc etc. The sort that have decided to delete comedy programmes such as Little Britain and Faulty Towers from their archives due to their 'offensive nature'. Nothing wrong with being socially aware per se, but it seems to me that in recent years there have been a disproportionate amount of newspaper articles about transgenderism for example, where it now must be taught in schools and how toilets should be arranged in order to cater for them etc when there may be only 1% in the country including non-binary, those that don’t solely identify as either male or female, or may identify as both :? .

elusive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am
Location: East of Malaga

Re: Disappearing History

Postby elusive » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:54 pm

never, never eat Cadbury's chocolate ever again
-------------'

WHAT?! I ve just finished off my first of many bars bought in nerjas new dealz shop the other day :lol: malcom x may have said " A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything" but the dairy milk will never go!!

Every country from the begining of time certainly has its dirty washing. But i think thats taking away from the BLM situation which is about the ingrained police/ establishment brutality in the U.S.A because of that countries history i really cant see it ever changing. (Just today another man has been killed while running from the police in atlanta). through the jim crow laws to how the police seem to be the most unprofessional and worse trained force in the western world? Through to the hugely influencial police unions and corrupt D.A's that will do whatever they can to avoid prosecutions. Nothing has changed since rodney king.

Pulling statues down is in one sense taking away from the main issue and trying to downplay what has gone on for decades etc by bringing up other issues associated with certain sections of the black community,as if that takes away from the protests of today is a diversionary tactic imo. Theres been enough protest against FGM for example but its something that effects a small % of the black community and it has no connection to black brits of caribbean decent and african americans. but are they supposed to be out on the streets in their thousands protesting against it. Why? because they are black? They have no other connection to it other than that.or are they all the same regardless of culture etc because they are "black" I guess all white ppl should be out protesting about anything that involves white communities on the otherside of the world regardless as to whether its relevent to you or not cause after all your white. Its an illogical argument unless its used inorder to downplay what is been protested about. Protesting about something that directly or indirectly effects you.

Taken from the interweb but sums it up nicely.

When the manchester bombings happened lots of ppl changed their profile to the worker bee and said manchester be strong. Ppl didnt say all cities be strong.

When there were the shootings at the bataclan in 2015 ppl said i stand with paris. They didnt say what about all the ppl that are shot in my city

Have you ever seen someone counter a breast ccancer post with what about colon cancer.

But for some reason if anyone says BLM then it turns into an all inclusive all lives matter. Its not an either/or proclamation when there is a crisis we have always rallied around that particular group. It doesnt discredit or diminish any other group. It just brings awareness and support to the group that needs it.

And with that im off to eat some more dealz diary milk!
Last edited by elusive on Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

elusive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am
Location: East of Malaga

Re: Disappearing History

Postby elusive » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:00 pm

Im still trying to work out what all the lgbtqetd stands for wicksey :lol:

Seriously though. How jk rowling was attacked this week sums it up. Alot of things have gone to far. John cleese statement re faulty towers was spot on especially regarding laughing at those makubg the racist comments. If you havnt read it its excellent. i read Its now back on streaming services. Re little britain. All i say on a personal level is karma is a b!#/^ for matt lucas. And the nasty vile things he has said in the past. whos cancelled now!

Manchesteral
Resident
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Disappearing History

Postby Manchesteral » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:24 pm

Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgender, etc, etc, basically used by people with personal confidence issues who are unable to accept reality !


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests