Good link from Google, obviously lying through their teeth. Interesting that they have disabled comments. Worrying too how much power they have.Beachcomber wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:40 pm A bit of wriggling from Google regarding Katy's Winston Churchill reference:
https://support.google.com/websearch/th ... 7714?hl=en
https://i.imgur.com/cQniuVj.png
They blanked out Churchill and left Hitler and Mussolini in the wartime leaders gallery. How bizarre.
If it hadn't been for Churchill these people who are currently engaged in riots, looting, malicious damage, assaults and other gross criminality would never have had the opportunity to carry out this inexcusable behaviour assuming, of course, that they would ever have been allowed to exist.
Disappearing History
Re: Disappearing History
Re: Disappearing History
History is something I'm fairly passionate about too, so this is a long post...
First things first: history cannot disappear because it has never been settled - history is by its very nature the reinterpretation of limited selections of the past. It can never tell all of the past, and the narrative often tells more about the historian/author than the subject he is narrating.
That's why history is *always* being re-written. Not by BLM or antifa, but every day. History is rewritten every time some new evidence is found and every time a different person looks at something in a slightly different way (and that includes us reading historiography).
But to back up a bit, consider the past as a big wide landscape and us inside a house trying to see it. We use the windows to look out, obviously. The top windows in the attic let us see the Kings and Queens and then it works on down each floor to the basement where we can see out to the ordinary people who lived at the time.
Now there's an explosion or something outside to the right and we're distracted by that, and only look at that. It doesn't matter what window you're looking out now because we're all looking at the explosion.
And what will you tell people you saw in the landscape that day? The little people carrying on as normal on the left (boring)? Or the explosion on the right (exciting!)? Either way, both are the past but you're selecting the bit you think is most important and making the rest disappear.
Now, I was at a different window to you, so my perspective of the landscape is completely different. So even if I want to talk about the explosion too, are our accounts will differ. And we've also both neglected to look at whatever else was going on at that time, which was also the past, wasn't it? By neglecting part of the landscape we are essentially erasing some of the past simply by not talking about it.
If we want to then remember that explosion in years to come, I might argue for a memorial to the ordinary people I saw die in it, but you might want a statue to the King you saw ordering the army in to rescue the survivors. Whatever gets built isn't the actual past event that occurred on that day, they are both just reminders of our memories based on what we saw from our windows (i.e. the history we have written).
People like to think they know history if they can reel off the names of Kings and battles but those are just answers to pub quizzes. They don't explain the significance of those kings, or the difference between a medieval King and the Queen today, or the different constitutional obligations of the Queen of the UK and the King of Spain, or how they came to be different.
People interested in these ideas - what history actually is - would do well to start with Edward H. Carr's seminal "What is history?" and then move on to Keith Jenkin's "Re-thinking History" for the more theoretical aspects.
I should give the last word to the slavery museum in Liverpool which others have already mentioned. The museum tweeted a picture of the COlston statue in Bristol being rolled down the road and captioned it "THIS is history!". And it was - it was the photographer's view of that event that day. But what they meant is that we should remember the actions people take, not the things put up to remember what people thought about those actions.
First things first: history cannot disappear because it has never been settled - history is by its very nature the reinterpretation of limited selections of the past. It can never tell all of the past, and the narrative often tells more about the historian/author than the subject he is narrating.
That's why history is *always* being re-written. Not by BLM or antifa, but every day. History is rewritten every time some new evidence is found and every time a different person looks at something in a slightly different way (and that includes us reading historiography).
But to back up a bit, consider the past as a big wide landscape and us inside a house trying to see it. We use the windows to look out, obviously. The top windows in the attic let us see the Kings and Queens and then it works on down each floor to the basement where we can see out to the ordinary people who lived at the time.
Now there's an explosion or something outside to the right and we're distracted by that, and only look at that. It doesn't matter what window you're looking out now because we're all looking at the explosion.
And what will you tell people you saw in the landscape that day? The little people carrying on as normal on the left (boring)? Or the explosion on the right (exciting!)? Either way, both are the past but you're selecting the bit you think is most important and making the rest disappear.
Now, I was at a different window to you, so my perspective of the landscape is completely different. So even if I want to talk about the explosion too, are our accounts will differ. And we've also both neglected to look at whatever else was going on at that time, which was also the past, wasn't it? By neglecting part of the landscape we are essentially erasing some of the past simply by not talking about it.
If we want to then remember that explosion in years to come, I might argue for a memorial to the ordinary people I saw die in it, but you might want a statue to the King you saw ordering the army in to rescue the survivors. Whatever gets built isn't the actual past event that occurred on that day, they are both just reminders of our memories based on what we saw from our windows (i.e. the history we have written).
People like to think they know history if they can reel off the names of Kings and battles but those are just answers to pub quizzes. They don't explain the significance of those kings, or the difference between a medieval King and the Queen today, or the different constitutional obligations of the Queen of the UK and the King of Spain, or how they came to be different.
People interested in these ideas - what history actually is - would do well to start with Edward H. Carr's seminal "What is history?" and then move on to Keith Jenkin's "Re-thinking History" for the more theoretical aspects.
I should give the last word to the slavery museum in Liverpool which others have already mentioned. The museum tweeted a picture of the COlston statue in Bristol being rolled down the road and captioned it "THIS is history!". And it was - it was the photographer's view of that event that day. But what they meant is that we should remember the actions people take, not the things put up to remember what people thought about those actions.
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Lavanda
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Re: Disappearing History
Wow! Excellent post — in my opinion!
Re: Disappearing History
Thanks again to everyone for putting forward your different views on what without doubt is a very emotive issue/subject.
Elusive, Your kind words and thoughts are most gracious and well received by me, Thank you....
A little encouragement goes a long way..
alpiniSi,
Your interaction with this subject was a 'breath of fresh air' and you have actually highlighted how different and sometimes opposing views can cunjure up so many different thoughts about history. Thank you.
For me staring at life through my dyslexic haze I know that I see everything differently to many other people.
For instance I'm really only interested in social history, I want to know how people lived, what they ate, how they behaved , if you asked me to give dates , names of Kings and Queens etc. I would fail miserably.
When I look at a statue or a painting of a 'famous or infamous ' person I don't actually connect with the face, I look at how they are dressed and the body language of the person as perceived by the sculptor or artist.
And I study and wonder and try to understand what that person was thinking, and were they evil or good or a mixture of both.?
It builds a good picture for me at what life was really like when that person was alive, and it makes me think what motivated them , was it power , greed or a genuine desire to make the world a better place to live in.
And I also try to understand how a persons idiology can change, for instance when someone receives a badge of office and they suddenly seem to go through a metamorphosis process and become quite evil......I call it ..........'Power Crazed Corporal Syndrome'.
And to get back to the problem of dismantling history, I'm now dismayed that so many local councils are removing statues, plaques , names etc., surely they would be better trying to offer proper explanations about the people who have now fallen from grace and let everyone make their own minds up and hopefully they will be correctly influenced by fully understanding the subject.
And now I must get on with sorting out our antique and vintage clothing collection ( over 1000 items )..Yikes.
And May I Now Wish Everyone a Very Pleasant Day and Hope that You are All touched by The End of a Rainbow.
Saludos,
Gordonious
Elusive, Your kind words and thoughts are most gracious and well received by me, Thank you....
A little encouragement goes a long way..
alpiniSi,
Your interaction with this subject was a 'breath of fresh air' and you have actually highlighted how different and sometimes opposing views can cunjure up so many different thoughts about history. Thank you.
For me staring at life through my dyslexic haze I know that I see everything differently to many other people.
For instance I'm really only interested in social history, I want to know how people lived, what they ate, how they behaved , if you asked me to give dates , names of Kings and Queens etc. I would fail miserably.
When I look at a statue or a painting of a 'famous or infamous ' person I don't actually connect with the face, I look at how they are dressed and the body language of the person as perceived by the sculptor or artist.
And I study and wonder and try to understand what that person was thinking, and were they evil or good or a mixture of both.?
It builds a good picture for me at what life was really like when that person was alive, and it makes me think what motivated them , was it power , greed or a genuine desire to make the world a better place to live in.
And I also try to understand how a persons idiology can change, for instance when someone receives a badge of office and they suddenly seem to go through a metamorphosis process and become quite evil......I call it ..........'Power Crazed Corporal Syndrome'.
And to get back to the problem of dismantling history, I'm now dismayed that so many local councils are removing statues, plaques , names etc., surely they would be better trying to offer proper explanations about the people who have now fallen from grace and let everyone make their own minds up and hopefully they will be correctly influenced by fully understanding the subject.
And now I must get on with sorting out our antique and vintage clothing collection ( over 1000 items )..Yikes.
And May I Now Wish Everyone a Very Pleasant Day and Hope that You are All touched by The End of a Rainbow.
Saludos,
Gordonious
Re: Disappearing History
I honestly don't see how removing a statue changes history. Statues have been removed or destroyed throughout history, going back to the Romans, if not further. People's interpretation of history evolves over time, as new facts emerge, historians and others re-evaluate what they thought they knew about an event or person.
Personally, I have no problem removing the statue of a slave trader. To my mine, it's a bit like removing an honour from someone you discover has done evil things....Jimmy Saville springs to mind here. So,even if that person has done some good things, for instance charitable works, the evil outweighs the good.
I don't remember too many British people compaining when statues or monuments to Saddam in Iraq, Ceaușescu in Romania or Stalin in Russia were torn down.
Personally, I have no problem removing the statue of a slave trader. To my mine, it's a bit like removing an honour from someone you discover has done evil things....Jimmy Saville springs to mind here. So,even if that person has done some good things, for instance charitable works, the evil outweighs the good.
I don't remember too many British people compaining when statues or monuments to Saddam in Iraq, Ceaușescu in Romania or Stalin in Russia were torn down.
Re: Disappearing History
Gerrynag,
I understand your viewpoints however it's Not about changing history it's about removing artefacts in the form of monuments etc., which takes away the chance to study and understand previous centuries.
And any form of yob and mob rule in my books is not on !
I'm an amateur local historian and archeologist, and constantly change my mind about history as new evidence unfolds.
Comparing the likes of Saville with slavetraders in my opinion are not the same, I met Saville numerous times, he visited my shop in Scarborough and I took an instant dislike to him, he was a creep,and he wasn't made welcome.
If you don't get the chance to study and form opinions about historical matters then the same bad deeds will keep recurring, as they already do.
Regards,
Gordon
I understand your viewpoints however it's Not about changing history it's about removing artefacts in the form of monuments etc., which takes away the chance to study and understand previous centuries.
And any form of yob and mob rule in my books is not on !
I'm an amateur local historian and archeologist, and constantly change my mind about history as new evidence unfolds.
Comparing the likes of Saville with slavetraders in my opinion are not the same, I met Saville numerous times, he visited my shop in Scarborough and I took an instant dislike to him, he was a creep,and he wasn't made welcome.
If you don't get the chance to study and form opinions about historical matters then the same bad deeds will keep recurring, as they already do.
Regards,
Gordon
Re: Disappearing History
I see your point about mob rule, but as I said earlier, did you object when they tore down statues of men who ruled their countries for decades ? You don't need to destroy the statues/monuments, they could be stored in museums, perhaps with an explaination of the person's actions. Telling his full story, warts and all.
Let's face it, if they had put up a statue to Jimmy Saville in Leeds back in the day, would people be demanding that statue stayed there after all we discovered about him ?
Edward Colston caused even more human misery than Saville, yet people think we should keep the statue on display, where people whose ancesters were may have been very badly abused, terrorised and murdered in some cases, have to walk past his statue.
During his involvment with the Slave trade, his company was responsible for the transportation of 84,000 slaves, of whom 19,000 died in transit.
That's the guy whose statue we want to remain ?
Let's face it, if they had put up a statue to Jimmy Saville in Leeds back in the day, would people be demanding that statue stayed there after all we discovered about him ?
Edward Colston caused even more human misery than Saville, yet people think we should keep the statue on display, where people whose ancesters were may have been very badly abused, terrorised and murdered in some cases, have to walk past his statue.
During his involvment with the Slave trade, his company was responsible for the transportation of 84,000 slaves, of whom 19,000 died in transit.
That's the guy whose statue we want to remain ?
Re: Disappearing History
Gerry,
I believe all monuments, statues, paintings etc., from history should be preserved and if necessary put in a 'villains' museum, where anyone can go and view and research them.
Do you really agree that Winston Churchill's statue should be dismantled, if some had their way. ?.
Many ancient monuments etc., have been destroyed or damaged over time making it more difficult to research the history, much of it destroyed or defaced because of sometimes misguided religious beliefs.
Much of the fuss at the moment is politically motivated, I'm really not interested in that, I just believe that as much history as possible should be preserved for future generations to see and try to understand.
Regards,
Gordon
I believe all monuments, statues, paintings etc., from history should be preserved and if necessary put in a 'villains' museum, where anyone can go and view and research them.
Do you really agree that Winston Churchill's statue should be dismantled, if some had their way. ?.
Many ancient monuments etc., have been destroyed or damaged over time making it more difficult to research the history, much of it destroyed or defaced because of sometimes misguided religious beliefs.
Much of the fuss at the moment is politically motivated, I'm really not interested in that, I just believe that as much history as possible should be preserved for future generations to see and try to understand.
Regards,
Gordon
Re: Disappearing History
Agree Churchill should not be classed along with slavery. Not really keen on statues but it is ludicrous to judge the past by today’s standards. Who knows that Colston was evil, he may have done what many thousands did....invest and were not hands on. He was not honoured for his slavery dealings but his philanthropy to the town. Similar to now, does anyone know what dubious investments your pension fund has?
When I see statues toppling I always have the feeling it won’t end w ell and usually it doesn’t. We should be more civilised than that.
The BLM seems to be mainly a white group in the UK. Would it not be better to invest their energy into protesting about the millions of people in slavery right now.
When I see statues toppling I always have the feeling it won’t end w ell and usually it doesn’t. We should be more civilised than that.
The BLM seems to be mainly a white group in the UK. Would it not be better to invest their energy into protesting about the millions of people in slavery right now.
Re: Disappearing History
I think you are missing the point, his statue is obviously very insulting to many black people, (and a lot of white people) in Bristol. It doesn't really matter why it was put up in the first place, the fact is that it is celebrating someone who did do evil things, regardless of his charitable deeds. From what I understand even his charity was only given to people who shared his religious and political views.
Putting it in a museum with background to his life and times, (which is what is being proposed), seems a very good compromise.
Putting it in a museum with background to his life and times, (which is what is being proposed), seems a very good compromise.
Re: Disappearing History
So that’s one. A City so unequal they have a black Mayor! Not really just about Colston either. Suppose there will be more outed like Cumberpatch for his Ancestors too. Anyway almost 100 statues on the list for smashing. What next...buildings, raise the Albert Hall and build apartments. Won’t actually end with a few statues now they have smelt blood.
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Lavanda
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Re: Disappearing History
It will be portraits of past Kings, Queens and Emperors painted by great artists that will be slashed next. The National Portrait Gallery might as well stay closed forever. What about that lovely portrait of Charles V by Titian? What about the statues over the graves of Ferdinand and Isabella in Granada? What about all the ART that will be lost in the process?
Re: Disappearing History
Yes lets get rid of all the buildings associated with these villains. Replace with cheap prefabs.
About 100 pages ago , I asked what Spain is going to do with the Muslim/christian fiestas celebrat8ng ousting the Muslims. Are the outcomes to be changed and no black faces allowed.? Ditto the Black Pete in Holland?
About 100 pages ago , I asked what Spain is going to do with the Muslim/christian fiestas celebrat8ng ousting the Muslims. Are the outcomes to be changed and no black faces allowed.? Ditto the Black Pete in Holland?
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Lavanda
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Re: Disappearing History
Good question but probably no one knows what the answer should be. I always try to think in terms of % of peoples from ethic origins living in a given country. ALL people should be respected and equal but when minorities dictate what should happen in a country it only leads to huge problems of resentment and, eventually, the rise of Nationalism.
No one who does not understand History will ever learn anything and be doomed to make the same mistakes over and over.
Who said that, Gordon? Someone famous, I think?
No one who does not understand History will ever learn anything and be doomed to make the same mistakes over and over.
Who said that, Gordon? Someone famous, I think?
Re: Disappearing History
I think people have really gone overboard with some of their comments here. We are talking about removing one statue here, its not the fall of Western civalization. As I said in earlier comments. I bet most of you didn't think it was wrong to remove statues in Eastern Europe or elsewhere a few years ago, but you don't approve of it in your own backyard or former backyard.
As I also pointed out earlier, if there was a statue of Jimmy Saville, (who did a lot of charitable work), would you object to that been removed ?
Perhaps, someone can explain the difference ?
As I also pointed out earlier, if there was a statue of Jimmy Saville, (who did a lot of charitable work), would you object to that been removed ?
Perhaps, someone can explain the difference ?
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Lavanda
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Re: Disappearing History
The Fall of Western Civilisation could start with the removal of one statue. How do you think big events happen? Not all at once but bit by bit by bit.
On a personal note I had never heard of the man in Bristol whose statue is now in the canal.
On a personal note I had never heard of the man in Bristol whose statue is now in the canal.
Re: Disappearing History
Not just one statue is it, just the beginning. Gladstone is now being vilified and his name disappearing at Liverpool University. Also all blue plaques are being examined by English Heritage to see what the links are. Always thought the plaques a daft costly idea but having put them up it is the principle. Mentioned in the Times as targets are Montgomery, Daniel Defoe (burning Robinson Crusoe books?) and a few others.
Lavanda touches on feeding the rise of Nationalism, correct. I would bet that EDL etc have had some new recruits this week.
One thing that should come out of this farce is that the erection of statues should be banned.
I am an opera fan and Royal opera house streamed a performance of songs on Saturday. After the first song the whole cast came on and did the knee thing. (Fits in with Beachcombers new religion thread)
Lavanda touches on feeding the rise of Nationalism, correct. I would bet that EDL etc have had some new recruits this week.
One thing that should come out of this farce is that the erection of statues should be banned.
I am an opera fan and Royal opera house streamed a performance of songs on Saturday. After the first song the whole cast came on and did the knee thing. (Fits in with Beachcombers new religion thread)
Re: Disappearing History
I agree with most of the very sensible comments made here, however .. 'Going Overboard' with comments--Not At All.
It has taken the horrific and tragic killing of one man to kick off all of the present protests and ONE toppling of a relatively unkown statue could easily lead to much more outcry and vandalism, and has little to do with racial equality, which I'm 100% for....by the way.
So I will continue to try and support and preserve all of the History that I can, only a few months ago I actually protested in the streets of Salar , with many 100's of people, against the removal of a very precious statue from our Roman Villa, taken to a 'Big ' museum.......I actually appeared on national telly with my banner...written in English..deliberately....
)....My only claim to fame.... 
.
Have a good Day Everyone,
Regards,
Gordon the TV Star...
It has taken the horrific and tragic killing of one man to kick off all of the present protests and ONE toppling of a relatively unkown statue could easily lead to much more outcry and vandalism, and has little to do with racial equality, which I'm 100% for....by the way.
So I will continue to try and support and preserve all of the History that I can, only a few months ago I actually protested in the streets of Salar , with many 100's of people, against the removal of a very precious statue from our Roman Villa, taken to a 'Big ' museum.......I actually appeared on national telly with my banner...written in English..deliberately....
)....My only claim to fame.... .Have a good Day Everyone,
Regards,
Gordon the TV Star...
Re: Disappearing History
At least Macron has some backbone
Macron addressing the French people on Sunday…
“I will be very clear tonight, compatriots: the Republic won’t erase any name from its history. It will forget none of its artworks, it won’t take down statues”
A brief history of statue smashing here
https://unherd.com/2020/06/the-disturbi ... -smashing/
Macron addressing the French people on Sunday…
“I will be very clear tonight, compatriots: the Republic won’t erase any name from its history. It will forget none of its artworks, it won’t take down statues”
A brief history of statue smashing here
https://unherd.com/2020/06/the-disturbi ... -smashing/
Re: Disappearing History
As I said above, where does it end. A contender for the LibDems leadership is being bad mouthed on Social media, never heard of her but her name is Wara Hobhouse. Here Husband's Ancestor made his fortune investing in the slave market. Not just guilt by ancestory, guilt by association. Maybe in 20 years time our decedents will have a sticker on their doors for the things we invested in which supports present day slaverykaty wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:20 pm Columbus’s head has already gone on an American statue. Don’t think Europe is as concerned as our middle class whites though. Lots of slave caves in Kenya and Tanzania to visit, all founded by Middle East traders in humans. Where will it end...it could be you if one of your ancestors invested on the stock markets a few hundred years ago. On the other hand the wokes may find some other cause, started with the me too brigade and moved on to extinction rebellion they are all the same crowd. Maybe nothing tO watch on TV soon.
Agree with Gerry but I doubt it would appease the hysterical masses.
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