Disappearing History

[markwilding]

While I understand your point, I don't think there's any reason why history cannot be revaluated to reflect current views and statues, which don't represent these more modern ideas and which certain groups find offensive for obvious reasons, should be taken down.

History is not being subverted. In fact in could be argued that history was subverted in the past which seem to give the impression that these were good god fearing people when in fact they were murderers and exploited the misery of humans for financial gain even if they financed some charitable organisations . In my view it is perfectly reasonable to take them down and put into a museum where people can still learn about them in the correct context.

The argument that times were different doesn't stand up either due the fact that we know they were wrong so how will future generations view this one because we allowed the statues to stay in the full knowledge that they were slave traders.

To put some context on it, I could understand the mitigating circumstances that times were different if a ancestor of mine was involved in the slave trade in one way or another but I certainly wouldn't be proud of the fact nor would I want to idolise him in any way.

[BENIDORM]

Mark I fully understand your views and respect them.

However my point is that it won't stop with 'slave traders' , already they are discussing removing Roman statues.

And I really don't see why some are having to apologise for acts carried out by previous generations, we've already moved on, surely ?

I consider it wrong to remove parts of history completely, however as stated, statues etc could be placed in the correct places and supplied with the complete information to allow future generations to be able to study, understand and learn.

And I've now said all that I intend to on this matter, but if anyone else wishes to debate the matter further then please do.

Regards,
Gordon.

[katy]

Well it is open season now, Haile salassie now toppled and smashed. Help their cause won’t it not. Mark, Where is the evidence that slave owners were murderers, many just owned them on paper and never visited the plantations. Much of the beatings were done by black managers of the estates. Everyone should save their virtue signalling for the slavery that is happening In the world right now, maybe start with the sweatshops in Leicester run by their own race.

[Manchesteral]

Good points Katy, it would appear that most of the "protestors" have conveniently forgotten that most of the slaves were rounded up by their own people (or people of their own colour) and then sold on to the slave traders in order to facilitate the trade, perhaps this should be taught in schools !

[gerrynag]

Yes, people were rounded up by other tribes and sold to the white slavers, but it was the white slavers who created the market. Katy, have you seen the mortality rate for slaves on the middle passage across the alantic, it was on average 15%. The slave traders packed people onto the ships and were well aware of the effect that would have on the number of casulities, so yes, they were murderers. On the plantations, whoever did the beatings, it was generally under the control of the white owners, who certainly knew what was happening. At the times, there were many people who campaigned against slavery, so owners, investers, anyone connected with the trade, certainly knew what was happening. I can't believe that you are trying to justify this evil trade. I don't know how many times I have said this, but here goes again......statues, usually created decades or centuries after person died, are not history......history is always been re-interpreted, as new facts come to hand. Now if people what to keep these statues, place them in a museum, along with all the facts about the person, good and bad, but don't leave them on display in the High Street, where descendants of people who were enslaved have to walk past it.

[katy]

Perhaps Rishi could offer to repatriate the descendants as atonement

Cannot judge history on how the world is today. Probably many did not care about slavery but I still believe many did not know about their investments, most don't today. many of the working class in the UK were not far removed from being treat as slaves 300 years ago. Perhaps the snowflakes should invest their energy in combatting modern slavery like what had been previously covered up in Leicester. Most of the statue topplers have just exchanged their banner from extinction Rebellion and are white middle class students. I think we should have moved on from Roman times or not imitate what the Taliban are doing in eradicating history. Or maybe we could topple some of the Roman symbols in UK seeing as they were shipping us as slaves.

It is a level of hysteria. It is the idea that you can wipe away our history. First of all, you start from the argument that because of a horrible, brutal killing by a police officer in another country thousands of miles away, we must erase all of our culture. That is a big jump.


Another British mixed-race former sportsman, Matthew Syed of The Sunday Times, asked of BLM whether ‘toppling another statue’ will ‘help the black person cowering from gangs in a drug-infested neighbourhood, the graduate denied promotion because of unconscious bias, the child growing up without hope in a tower block?’.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/07/0 ... ot-racist/

[Manchesteral]

I don't believe that I, Katy or anyone else is trying to "justify" slavery, merely reciting the facts, without the connivence of the many black tribes in Africa it's doubtful that slavery as it existed then would have been so prolific mainly because caucasians were scared of going into the heart of darkness, if you want the truth about history then we need to see the whole picture and not just edited highlights.

The senseless acts of wanton destruction and violence of recent times has done nothing for the cause of black people around the world and the policeman who killed George Floyd will quite rightly be severely punished but this does not address the fundamental problem which is education and decent social conditions for all !

I would be interested to hear your views on rioting, looting and the destruction of your own neighbourhood as a means of making your (the protestors) point !

[gerrynag]

The vast majority of marches, demonstrations, etc, were peaceful. Talking of riots, looting and destruction of property are exactly the same as the scare stories that Trump is promogating in the US. Ok, there will be always a small minority who take advantage of the situation and if they have committed a crime they should be punished. But, that is not a reason to condemn the whole movement.
Making the statement that, we must erase all of our culture, because of what is has happened in another country, is taking hyperbole to a whole new level. We are talking about the removal of a couple of statues, not the fall of western civilization. You wouldn't want a statue of a slave trader on public display, anymore than you would want a statue of the well known philanthropist, Jimmy Saville.
No one is changing history, in fact people are finding how more about historical events and people involved in them.

[Manchesteral]

Are you saying that the Footage of people looting stores in America was faked ?

[olive]

Good point about modern slavery.

Not hard to raid dubious businesses and check details. Could start with car washes. I have always wondered why they aren’t. Especially in Leicester.

[markwilding]

The two points are not incompatible. We certainly will not be erecting statues to modern exploitation so why shouldn't other statues, whose darker histories have come to light, be taken down?

[Lavanda]

The strange thing about all this is that demonstrations against slavery have been selective. Some historical slavery — involving white people using black people as slaves — has made the most recent noise. No one can do anything about all that now but we can learn lessons and more on. However, we can do something about modern slavery happening right now — but we don't. No one gets kudos for sticking up for real people in real slave situations happening right now. That would involve real effort. It's much easier to go out and have a fun day marching with friends and yelling, mainly at the police, and going home and feeling good.

I see no demonstrations or noise made about Arab people using Filipino people as slaves today — including in their luxurious houses in London. I see no demonstrations against white businessmen in the City of London using young girls of all skin colours as sex slaves in their busy lunchtimes. I see no demonstrations against white male sex tourism to Far Eastern countries to use young boys and girls in modern sex slavery.

Sorry but all this virtue-signalling by the middle-class-rent-a-mob is, quite frankly, ridiculous, misguided and misplaced.

[markwilding]

Sorry but all this virtue-signalling by the middle-class-rent-a-mob is, quite frankly, ridiculous, misguided and misplaced.

https://www.gettyimages.es/fotos/black- ... ostpopular

[Lavanda]

"Sorry but all this virtue-signalling by the middle-class-rent-a-mob is, quite frankly, ridiculous, misguided and misplaced."

I saw nothing in the photos that goes against what I wrote.

[katy]

I think Mark is trying to show that most of the protesters weren’t white although we know they were from live news. You can find anything you want on google including most demos where over 90% were white. Won’t bother though ha ha. Most of the statue smashers in uk were white.

[Lavanda]

I agree, Katy. I'm surprised that Emma Thompson didn't pop up. However, I never said the protesters were white. I didn't specify a skin colour. I said they were middle class. It speaks volumes about Mark that he thinks black people cannot be middle class.

[markwilding]

I will speak for myself so please don't assume anything about me.

I actually only posted pictures and I too never mentioned anything about any class or colour. My posts up until now have kept to the main theme which is about statues and history. You and I have no idea from any TV or photos what the background of the most of the people in the pictures are.

Anyway, It is irrelevant and I'm not actually sure what colour, class or main political persuasion has to do with If you agree with keeping the statues up or you don't and your reasons for doing so,

[katy]

Yes a photo without explanation is irrelevant, especially when everyone has seen them before.

An article here about the vandalism of Cervantes statue, and any others they could find. Doesn’t seem any explanation as to why even though they wrote bustard in red paint across it.

https://bookandfilmglobe.com/creators/w ... e-defiled/

[gerrynag]

Just because a few people abuse the situation, does not mean the reason behind the protests is wrong. The vast amount of the protests have been peaceful. This is just following the line of reasoning that Trump has been using in the States.