ILLEGAL BUILDS

[GRANVILLE]

Hi guys, There has been a lot written in the press and on this site about the above subject. Sorry to bore you but i have a couple of questions. Last week Campo Kenny said he was worried about his house even though he had all the proper paper work. WHY? If you have what you think is a good solicitor who does a good job won't he check that all the paper work is correct? I can understand that if you thought you might take a chance and not bother with planing permission or apply for a one bedroom shack and build a 5 bedroom mansion you may have a problem in the future but if you feel all the i's and t's have been dotted and crossed wont any failing in the paper work crop up before the wrecking crew? I can hear some of you now this is Spain not England. Or is every property built in the last few years potentially illegal

[Jool]

The Junta de Andalucia makes the rules up as they go along so what may be legal and fine now may be undone in the future. They make laws retrospective which is a legal and moral nonsense plus if they decide they want to do something they will fiddle the laws to ensure they can make a legitimate homeowner pay for it instead of them. Same applies to many of the town halls.

Buyer beware does not apply its a complete lottery in this part of Spain at the moment with no real protection for the ordinary person......plus the Junta and various town halls are in dispute especially if the town hall is of a different political persuasion to the Junta .......
So buy at your peril and only if you still have property left elsewhere.......

I am normally quite calm about things but I have heard today about some people where the town hall changed the law, and put in writing that they had changed the law, purely in order to make homeowners pay for something the town hall would normally be responsible for........the costs are so high it will bankrupt most if not all of them, 100% legal property owners with property classified as urban. That really brought it home to me just how corrupt and ruthless this country is........and not only do we, the ordinary people, have no real legal rights it seems Spain does not even care about normal human rights or their own laws as they can be amended to suit their own purposes at will....

Its just another version of Franco robbing the ordinary person all over again.......

[Beachcomber]

As much of a dictator as Franco undoubtedly was I don't think he stole land from the Spanish people (or knocked their houses down). In fact he gave land for villages such as Villafranco (of with there are many) and the names of which the socialists are seeking to change.

Jool, I agree with every word of the rest of your post. In case you don't have it here is the email address of Michael Cashman who is a British MEP and who is deputy chairman of the Petitions Commission.

[email protected]

or

[email protected]

I urge you to write to him giving whatever information you have. With the judiciary and media under tight political control there is little other recourse.

[Jool]

Hi Beachcomber,

Thanks I will send the info to them and hope they can do something. The town hall is not wanting the land only for the homeowners to pay to reclaim and protect it, I cannot go in to too much detail here yet in case it prejudices action that they are taking.......that was what I meant in comparing to Franco as he raided bank accounts to fund what he wanted to do.....

Your comments much appreciated, I am finding it harder and harder to enjoy living here as you never know what can happen around the corner even if you took care to purchase a fully legal property (if that even exists now with the municipal and regional ladrones...) and it defies all logic and reason......a high price for sun and the more relaxed lifestyle......

[Campo Kenny]

To answer Granvilles question directly I must just say that the remark I made about our house was partly tongue in cheek and partly a serious realisation of what is going on in Spain.

To concur with both Jool and Beachy I do feel that the goalposts can shift at any time deeming anything and everything illegal.
Even before this scare things were very sketchy and the rules seemed to differ in each area..........i.e. "you need 5000sq metres to build, you need 10000, you need 25000 etc.
A lot of people have been swept along in the purchase of a house by having their minds put at rest by old Spanish related cliches. Any problem with the transaction was met with "well that's how the Spanish do things","It's not like the UK", "manana" etc.
I'd assume many would blindly turn up at the Notary on the day clutching the seedy "brown envelope" of hard earned cash and hand it over without having a clue what their lawyer had in terms of paperwork for the property...............the only thing of importance to them was the word "escitura" which they'd learned at the bar

We were the same on our first purchase of a townhouse, we believed all we were told (an OH's a lawyer for Christs sake) we literally believed people at their word.............it seemed a quaint and nice way to do things and as muted something not to be confused with the UK.

With the purchase of our new casa 4 years back we were aware of discrepencies in rules and regs on other peoples homes so decided to try and get this one sorted properly........after all the Townhouse was a safe bet.
Near us the law as we believed it was that new builds needed to be on plots of 5000sq metres or more, yet there are new builds on plots of less than 1000 sq. metres.....crazy.

Anyway we got all the neccessary docs for this new place, and made sure no cash was involved.we also declared the true price on Escitura.
Friends who actually live there completed at a similar time to us and were shocked that our escitura names the salon, dormitarios, lavs, terrace even the piscina... theirs didn't and now they're worried.
They used the same notary and have paid the same taxes as us...........why the difference in the wording of the building?..........are we in the crap or are they?

What totally gets to me on these transactions is first of all the Notary..........will they just complete the transaction with missing paperwork? and secondly the tax bill on the purchase which I assume goes to central government...........it's a joke and third world despot behaviour to take huge slabs of peoples money on what they want to deem an illegal build.
It seems to me that the Spanish govt. are now overstepping the accepted boundaries of behaviour all modern 1st world countries adhere to and something has got to give............I also think they know that, especially with it now being publicised world wide.

As I said a few weeks back I think the game plan here is to make an example of a few builds deemed as illegal............thus opening the floodgates for a mass retrospective tax on a million homes to "legalise" them, irrespective of having valid paperwork.........a cash windfall for a cash strapped regime.it stinks.

Would be good to see if the couple in Veras compensation claim comes good.........which I think it might. I would then personally burn my esctituras and licences and put a *beep* big sign at the end of our track saying "illegal build that way", guess I wouldn't be on my own either.
The Junta will slip up.....the days of people like these are numbered, history has proved this.

We bought our place not for investment or gain and even on our townhouse we agreed we may not see the money again years before this kicked off, we've written it off to be honest and think of it as maybe a little bonus years down the line.
There's loads of people like ourselves who would have time and recources to fight this all the way...........it's the poor souls who've lost/losing everything that sickens me, these guys need help.

If we were ever hit with a legalisation tax I wouldn't pay it, they can *beep* off...........IT IS LEGAL and we paid the tax on it.

My heads not been around it for the last few days so I apologise for what maybe a disjointed post........I just read Granvilles question and the answers and went off on one.........sorry.

Cheers,
Kenny

[Jool]

Well said Kenny

[Jool]

PS - a good escritura describes the accommodation at the property, your friends can amend theirs by getting an aparejador to do a drawing and get that info added to the document, it can be quite a long process but should not be too expensive.

[Campo Kenny]

Thanks Jool.

[adam08]

are now overstepping the accepted boundaries of behaviour all modern 1st world countries adhere to

Cheers,
Kenny

But Spain is not a 1st world country, if people want to believe it is they will get bit time and time again.

[Jool]

Adam,

It is part of the EU and thus supposed to be first world isn´t it? Instead it behaves like a corrupt third world one. Of course we can understand it in the context of history as it has not been a democracy that long but that is no excuse, it is such a shame as Spain has so much going for it potentially, and its rapidly losing its way......

[GRANVILLE]

Thanks for your reply KENNY. I'm sorry for raking all this up again but i couldn't understand all the uncertainty. I do now. hopefully one day soon the worm will turn and something will be done for all the people who have been dumped on. I was reading last night about a street march and protest in Vera which included Spanish and other nationalities not just Brits. Money talks and with the housing market already slowing down and all the bad press this has been given all over Europe on the TV the junta may realize they cant bite the hand that feeds it. They may get a one of levy payment or tax but people will not trust them again and go elsewhere to live.
Good luck to all

[Jool]

Granville,
I was at the demo, and have to say, given all the people affected and how many are on the forums on the subject it was a pretty poor show, at least 3 times as many brits could have turned up, there is only strength in numbers....I so hope you are right as we are seen as a cash machine....

You must live in an area unaffected? Where is it?!

[adam08]

Adam,

It is part of the EU and thus supposed to be first world isn´t it? Instead it behaves like a corrupt third world one. Of course we can understand it in the context of history as it has not been a democracy that long but that is no excuse, it is such a shame as Spain has so much going for it potentially, and its rapidly losing its way......

A few countries recently became members of the EU, but I wouldn't class these are first world countries, just by becoming a member of the EU doesn't give a country the right to be called a first world country, whatever that realy implies. Supposed and actually are poles apart.

Now I'm not a new kid on the block, I've lived most of my life here, so I know here quiet well. Lets just look at one small area, Service, and post venta care, it is virtually non existent, here it is the attitude, it's my business I'm right and if you don't like it go back to your own country, and the friendly happy guy always pleased to see you, of course he is pleased to see you, your feeding him, in all the years I have lived here the only aspect that has changed is that a new filler was put in to fill the cracks, those same cracks are now just reappearing.

Personally I don't think it will change, it is the culture of the country, it's not a question of giving them time, it is 3rd world standards, and will always be so IMO.

[Campo Kenny]

Adam and Jool, you're both on the same side there and similar to me and others with your views.
I think what we're trying to say is Spain SHOULD be a first world country(for want of a better name) with the position they hold in the EU. They want a political voice in Europe and the world and need to earn that right.

It's a good job other nations don't follow the draconian stance this govt. is trying to display......it's a throwback to the dark ages and modern countries, especially EU members should not be allowed to play like this..........the rules of decency should be displayed there as they are in the UK.
We are too soft in the UK, playing by the Juntas rules a pair of Spanish pensioners should be booted out of their UK home and forced to watch it be bulldozed as a tit for tat, only problem there is the Junta probably wouldn't give a toss, they treat their own like peasants too

They will get a rude awakening if they continue in this vain, I can see it coming.

Kenny

[Jool]

You´re both right Kenny, why don´t the other more "senior" or honest EU countries get on Spain´s case? Look at how much the UK bends over backwards to play fair and follow things it signed up to yet Spain does what it wants, takes EU money for roads to literally nowhere, and is still all fur coat and no knickers........

Let´s hope the come-uppance is REALLY soon and only affects the power brokers of a corrupt regime (some hope eh, but we can dream...)

Jool.....

[gronc]

Does the EU have any power in Spain? Things like land grab seem to be the same as robbery. Can´t the EU do something and force Spain to compensate these poor people whom we read about?

[Jool]

To all intents and purposes and all normal decent people it is highway robbery....but Spain only abides by EU rules if they stand to get or make money from it and not otherwise, they need really clamping down on......serious sanctions.

There have been loads and loads of cases presented to the EU by Euro MP´s on behalf of various different northern europeans and still they find a way to fleece people some other way.....

I am thinking of starting a petition to the wimp in power in the UK as a Prime Minister´s petition but will people actually sign it - it seems people are happy to whinge but not DO something about it as shown by the poor turnout (compared to those affected) last Sunday in Vera. WE need to let the UK and the EU know just how much we are worried about it........and tell them we want something done about it, it won´t happen overnight but it keeps the pressure on the bullies......

Sorry but I am really angry about this as so many hard-working people are losing out while fat cats get rich and laugh all the way to the bank or their self righteous political domains......

[Lavanda]

Interesting thread ... we have recently found out that people here can get a 30% grant from the EU to build a Casa Rural to encourage tourism. Some Casa Rural's are genuine. However, we know of three people who got the grant, did the build, NEVER have toursits, keep the house for 'private' use and either have sold it on and kept the grant money or intend to keep it in the family and leave it to their children.

This is a VERY strange country. Needless to say, foreign nationals find it impossible to get the grant. Spaniards have no trouble.

[tjtops]

Another one for the melting pot....my house, I recently discovered, was originally built in the 1960s, and has had bits added on since (all on the escritura) and genuinely believed to be completely 'legal.'
The land is classified permanent rural. Surely (she hopes!!) this is safer than a 'newer' build....??

[Jool]

IMHO The important thing for you is when the first escritura is dated and whether it had the house on it or not. Provided it did and it dates back to the 1960´s then you should be ok. If not then try and find out when the house first appeared on the escritura. However don´t add any more extensions to it or outbuildings without planning permission beforehand.

Individual cortijos that have legally existed for decades beforehand, whether on rural land or not should be fine legally, its new building on rural land that is being stamped out to conserve and protect it for the future.

Hope this helps - a good solicitor should be able to explain and check this for you.