Prime Minister´s petition

Do you have a query on how to get things done in Andalucia, where to find things, who to call? Find out by posting and hear about others experiences.
masterob
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 2165
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:08 pm
Location: Previously Álora but now in Milton Keynes UK

Postby masterob » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:43 am

Jools, I am afraid I am with Bongtrees on this. The issue is a matter for the Spanish Government and not the UK Government. Based on my past experience, such a petition would be passed to the Foreign & Commonwealth Office for consideration. I just cannot see them "interfering" - for that is what it is, in the internal affairs of a fellow EU & NATO country. The FCO have enough issues with Spain regarding Gibraltar!

Costapacket suggested that the British Government should issue guidelines on purchasing a property in Spain. Is that really a role for the British Government? In any case I´m not sure how on earth they could set about doing so given that the nub of the problem seems to be the inadequacy of existing land laws within Spain and it´s Regions.

Cassandra suggested that UK Agents selling property in Spain might be made liable. How could that could be made to work? It would be well nigh impossible for them to know such legal detail anymore than they do regarding UK property. Isn´t that the role of the lawyers?

From what I have read in this forum about the Vera case, it seems the house was built illegally, albeit due to differences between the local Council and the regional Government. Although uncommon, illegally built houses in the UK are also demolished!

Regarding your point about British Citizens returning destitute to the UK, I thought that, where it could be established that the Council had some liabilty, compensation would/could be paid?

As to the reference in the British Passport about allowing the bearer to pass freely, it is just that, hence the origin of the word "passport". It doesn´t have any relevance to the laws pertaining to British Citizens living or owning property in a foreign country.

Apolgies for being so negative, but you did invite comments. However, on a more positive note, I would have thought the best option is the EU route based on the success that Michael Cashman had in regard to the Valencia Land Grab. That route also covers other EU citizens who have bought in Spain and the more fellow EU countries that complain, the better the impact.

Bongtrees
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 2341
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:51 pm
Location: Valencia

Postby Bongtrees » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:35 pm

The Socialist Government has taken some aggressive action against the heads of the Spanish Roman Catholic Church after it suggested that voting for the Socialists at the March elections might not be such a good idea, as they had damaged so many institutions of the country.

The Prime Minister termed the Catholic Church as Fundamentalists, and has ordered Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos to go to the Vatican and tell the authorities there that the Government is highly perplexed by the statement from the Spanish Episcopalian Conference.

Meanwhile the Spanish Islamist Conference has called on all its supporters to vote for the Socialists next March

Laslomas
Resident
Posts: 772
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:53 pm
Location: frigiliana no more :(

Postby Laslomas » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:08 am

I see a petition for this has been started on the Downing Street website this is the link. Currently 66 signatures, so I am sure we can increase this.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/illegalAlbox/

I found it whilst I was following the progress of another petition that may also be of interest.

This will affect you if you receive a Local Authority or Civil Service pension, and live outside UK. Because this pension must be taxed in the UK you will now find that you will be paying more tax due to the abolition of the ten pence tax band.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/10penceband/

scarlet
Resident
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:19 pm
Location: cartama

Postby scarlet » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:29 am

LASLOMAS. the date to sign on that website was finished in 2007, and was only to do with albox. But it says people can start a new one.

Jool
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 4915
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 5:56 am
Location: Coastal Almeria

Postby Jool » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:36 am

THe British Prime Minister has stated in public that these issues are for the spanish national government to sort out and made it clear he was not interested, hence I did not progress any petition as it would be a waste of time...

The best hope I can see is the fact that the effects of these policies in Spain are now being felt - official figures released yesterday show a 68% increase in businesses going under in the first quarter of this year compared to last year leaving 2500 people directly affected and 10000 indirectly affected.......plus of course the exchange rate does not help .........

Laslomas
Resident
Posts: 772
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:53 pm
Location: frigiliana no more :(

Postby Laslomas » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:47 am

I signed it today - so it is not closed!
I think that any mention of the plight here will be helpful.

scarlet
Resident
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:19 pm
Location: cartama

Postby scarlet » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:55 am

My reply from mr cashman some weeks ago was that he was looking into it, but his funds are limited ,
Getting the right support is difficult as many english are apathetic and cant be bothered and pretend that it dosent affect them, when you tell them that any house on rustic land is deemed illegal they still dont beleive it will affect them. I am in contact with the couple who live opposite the house that was demolished in cartama, whos house and others are due for demolition, they have tried to round up the people and even stood in local elections, they are still trying , but getting the expat support is very difficult. some of us on here will stand up but thats only a handful , we need hundreds to have any chance, The idea of a march in the streets with half a dozen people would be very dissapointing.
I cant see the uk helping us that much, we made the decision to come here, they will say its our own fault. You know I have similar property problems to you, and will stand up and shout if enough people stand up as well, otherwise we wont be heard.

j4mes
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:14 am

Postby j4mes » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:00 am

What I don't understand (and maybe someone can explain it to me) is if these houses that are being threatened (or already "for the chop" as it were) and had at the time all of the required paperwork, why people are not taking massive legal action against whoever is responsible.

If the "local gov" is responsible (i.e it issued illegal building permissions) I would be taking legal action against central gov (whose responsibility is surely to police local gov's).

I think rather than signing petitions to present to UK MP, why do not collectively these "victims" empoly the service of a "sh*t hot" lawyer and go after the people responsible (and whilst many may deny responsibility, surely in each and every case it's clear to see where the failing was). A sh*t hot lawyer will take it from court to court (and the European Courts if necc) and I fail to see how ANY court could rule in favour of the defendants and standby and watch someone's life being destroyed because of corruption and not uphold a claim that someone needs to be held accountable??

Like I said, I would like someone to explain in a little more detail why the above isn't possible????

scarlet
Resident
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:19 pm
Location: cartama

Postby scarlet » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:15 am

Finding a *beep* lawyer inspain, I dont think one exists, and taking the goverment to court etc, would be very difficult, we are trying to sue a pool company, and that is hard enough. It would costs thousands to get even a half good lawyer.
Trying to do anything legal here is like banging your head on a brick wall, I did lots of legal cases in the uk, and would have done so here concerning my own town hall and property, but as a foreigner, you dont stand a chance. The town halls, the notary, lawyers, estate agents are all answerable, but is just accepted and ignored. I have regularly blown a gasket about all this, but I have to stay calm, or my health will be affected.
The expats only have power here when spending their money, if you start rocking the boat, the worm turns, and is a bad place to be. Believe me....

katy
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 12359
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:45 pm

Postby katy » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:22 am

Going through the courts here can take years and an extortionate amount of money. I know someone who took a builder to court 3 years ago (total cost 25,000), they won! To this day the serious defects have still not been corrected.
Most ex-pats, unless they are personally affected don't want to get involved, they are scared of rocking the boat. I'm alright Jack is alive and kicking!

j4mes
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:14 am

Postby j4mes » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:34 am

of course one exists, it's about finding them!.....My lawyer for example is harvard educated, brilliant on "points of law" and the like, and has practiced law in Spain for 20 odd years, so undertands the system.

Whilst I am not suggesting he take the case on, I am sure you could find someone similar who could.....

Re the costs....60,000 odd cases outstanding I recall?? So if each of these contributed 50 euros to be added as a plaintiff, theres a "fighting fund" started with over €3,000,000.00 euros (which really would make a sh*t hot lawyer sit up and take notice!!!!!)....not to mention the exposure such a law firm would recieve....

Also, an action of this size and magnitude would create massive waves, here, in the uk, in local gov, in central gov etc and would certainly make those responsible start shifting in thier chairs!!!...

I agree scarlet that if you rock the boat this is a bad place to be, but for these people losing hundreds of thousands of pounds, thier homes and their dreams, rocking the boat should be exactly what they want to do....Rock it, I'd be planning on how to sink it!!!!!!!!

scarlet
Resident
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:19 pm
Location: cartama

Postby scarlet » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:48 am

Good fighting talk, if everyone thought like that we would get somewhere, but most dont. I am a person who always fights for rights of myself and others, but when people just shrug their shoulders, whats the point. It would take some mass advertising of the fact that something was being done, papers, mags, local radio, the olive press is a great action paper, this affects people in all areas of spain, maybe sending a false letter to people affected stating that their house is to be demolished would give the kick up the bum they need. it would take drastic action to make people sit up and take notice, instead of the normal tut tut, how awful .
It is very frustrating, a lot of the people affected are in a worse position than me, but I am still prepared to do something.

Jool
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 4915
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 5:56 am
Location: Coastal Almeria

Postby Jool » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:53 am

I´m afraid I sadly have to agree with Katy and Scarlet, in principle it would be wonderful if you were right James but in reality it seems almost impossible to get all those affected to contribute to a fighting fund, most of them through fear that if their builder finds out their water or elec will be cut off etc, as they are still on builder´s supply.........and some through lack of hope etc or fear of rocking any kind of boat in a system they don´´t understand, where they don´t speak the language. Plus around here some are still being promised it will all come out ok in the end if they don´t rock the boat!!!!!

I so wish you were right, I would contribute 50 euros for this as its high time it stopped........even though my house is at least legal! I wonder if it would be worth while starting a fighting fund on here with links to Michael Cashman...I know a lawyer who has no fear of being litigious against fellow spanish but the fund could approach several and choose the best.......and there may be more interest now as incomes are going down with less houses being sold...... We could each advertise it to other forums and a minimum of 10 people so word gets around and then, if there is enough interest, start doing something about it........

When I took legal action against a builder I was astounded by the lack of support from others, sympathy yes, but doing anything, no..........

scarlet
Resident
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:19 pm
Location: cartama

Postby scarlet » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:57 am

I posted a similar thing on another forum in support of the couple in cartama due for demolition, nobody replied, and someone posted a new subject saying, we only want to hear good things. I rest my case.

katy
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 12359
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:45 pm

Postby katy » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:19 am

I could be the Treasurer :wink:

julian
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 5976
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: marbella

illegal

Postby julian » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:57 am

"when you tell them that any house on rustic land is deemed illegal"......... and where do you get that little gem of information from scarlet???

j4mes
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:14 am

Postby j4mes » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:05 pm

katy wrote:I could be the Treasurer :wink:
lol....not more corruption!!!!!!!!!!!

But serioulsy, i know you're average "joe" wouldn't contribute, as it's not his problem, but i am suggesting that....

Dear sir, if you are about to lose thousands of pounds becase of this and you want to take legal action but cant through fear and or costs, then please sign up to the following, contributing an intial 50€ in order to get the ball rolling....once the number of plaintiffs and therefore funds are in place, action will begin....should we not reach enough plaintiffs and or funds, then your money will be refunded

i dont think it would take massive advertising, a few notes on several forums, a couple of nods to journalists of newspapers and it would soon spread....it would be very newsworthy after all.....

Cheap website so people can get the info and you're away......

scarlet
Resident
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:19 pm
Location: cartama

Postby scarlet » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:07 pm

If your land is classed as rustic, you cannot build a house on it legally , you can build an animal house or work shed, of a very small size, you can also have lots of legal paperwork, but your town hall will still class it as illegal, I live on rustic land .

julian
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 5976
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: marbella

illegal

Postby julian » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:11 pm

so you are referring to houses to be built on rustic land, that is not the same as saying "any house on rustic land is deemed illegal"

scarlet
Resident
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:19 pm
Location: cartama

Postby scarlet » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:28 pm

nit picking.
I have been told by various people in authority, that any house on rustic land is illegal, paperwork or not, as it is deemed to be land not allowed to be built on, if you are lucky enough to be on land that is changed to urban like we are, when it happens... that then changes things. In the past it was easy to sell your property, as lawyers etc, just did it.But now it will be a lot harder, many lawyers here wouldnt dare. and are being very well behaved.

J4mes. not that many people go on forums, so would not read it, and in the campo, I am amazed that people dont know anything that is going on, unless you go in the english bars, which here many dont bother, some have never even heard of certain newspapers. not so easy, as for paying 50euros out, they would think its a scam.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests