Bull fights

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pirate
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Bull fights

Postby pirate » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:47 pm

Has any body been to one?

What are they like?
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Postby Malaga_blue » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:57 pm

What do you think???

Coward walks into a ring with a couple of swords, drugged up Bull enters the arena and the Bull suffers a slow painful death.

Great fun for all the family :(

Seriously, why would you want to even consider watching a bull fight?.



Sorry for the sarcasm - I know its a Spanish tradition blah blah blah but it makes me sick to the stomach.

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Postby costagirl » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:01 pm

never been to one.

will never go to one.

horrible , cruel and vicious form of so called sport.

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Postby frog » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:03 pm

i thought spain was great,only if you close you eyes i guess
chalk another one up to me
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Re: Bull fights

Postby El Cid » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:59 am

pirate wrote:Has any body been to one?

What are they like?
Go to one (or watch one on TV) and then you will be able to have a balanced more informed opinion on the subject.

You may enjoy it, most foreigners, and many Spanish, do not.

As for cowardice, I don't think this guy would agree!

http://tinyurl.com/5uz38k

http://tinyurl.com/5rsrlw

If you want to know more about it, the Andalucia.com main section has a fairly detailed guide to most aspects of modern bullfighting.

http://www.andalucia.com/bullfight/home.htm

Sid

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Postby peteroldracer » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:18 am

Canal Sur, Sunday afternoon/evening.
As Sid says, you are best forming your own opinion as everyone does not take the same view.....
There are even some people in this world who don't like dwarf-chucking - no taste at all!! :roll:
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Postby mijasmagic » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:50 am

There is a degree of bravery on the part of the toreadors. They are gored, sometimes seriously, from time to time and deaths have occured. However, I agree the whole event is so lopsided that to call it a sport is nonsense. We see lots of customers who have just left the bullring and the most positive reaction we have ever had from them was "it was ok".
I´ve never been to one, but have watched on TV until I could watch no more. You wouldn´t get me paying 60 euros to see it live, that´s for sure!

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Postby El Cid » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:12 am

Bullfighting is not a sport and never has been. In Spain it is considered to be a "cultural" event - it is only foreigners who wrongly describe it as a sport.

You're right about the price, apart from grotty little village fights with a portable ring, admission to the major events is very expensive - it doesn't seem to put off the Spaniards, the major corridas are usually sold out and some of them take place every day for 2 weeks.

One of the problems with bullfights is that the majority are not good (from a purist point of view) and the end result is messy and distressing to say the least. On the other hand, just occasionally it all comes together and you can begin to see what it's really all about.

Unfortunately most tourists only get to see the lower grade corridas with inferior matadors and bulls and this colours their opinion of the event (I am deliberately avoiding the animal rights issue here for the sake of objectivity) - it certainly doesn't encourage them to spent 60€ to see a "proper" event.

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bullfight

Postby patricia » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:52 am

There was an awful incident the other day in the Alpujarras where a very small and young bull - about 6 months - refused to "fight" so someone bought in a digger and attacked the bull because of its refusal. From the video this poor little thing looked completely confused. Take a look at the video. The reason why they get away with doing this is because - and I am going to say it again - bullfighting legitimizes animal cruelty making it OK to do anything you like, when you like, as you like to any animal and until you get rid of this barbaric act there will always being dreadful animal cruelty in Spain, after all the event is televised and young children watch it, and just like violent videos it has it affect on impressionable young minds. You also have to remember that before these very brave men enter the bull ring in public they have had to practice on bulls not in public view and god knows what happens at those events.

As to the chap who got gored the other day, there were television and news pictures of his injuries but no one person took note that at the time that bull had received horrible injuries already from the picador's lance and also from the darts placed there by the "bandarillos" which are approx 7" long with a barb attached and there are normally eight placed into the muscle on the shoulder of the bull.

Calling these bulls "fighting" bulls is a misnomer because of course these bulls do not want to "fight" they have however been genetically breed to go for something which moves which is the cape, which the matador uses to attract the Bull. If you walk through a group of so called "fighting" bulls in a field you would be perfectly save as long as you do not prance up and down obviously and start annoying them. You could even walk around the bullring with a bull in it and would be safe, so fighting bulls they are not. The term is used to heighten the senses and feeling of excitement at these spectacles.

The Spanish by the way call it "art" and the results appear in the art page and not in the sports.

These events are a dreadful example of animal cruelty and should be banned clean kill or not, expert foot work or not, there is no great bull fight there is only an event which is the epitome of animal cruelty and mans shocking inhuman treatment towards a perfectly innocent animal simply to cater for peoples shocking blood lust and sadistic tendencies.

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Re: bullfight

Postby El Cid » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:46 pm

patricia wrote:
Calling these bulls "fighting" bulls is a misnomer because of course these bulls do not want to "fight" they have however been genetically breed to go for something which moves which is the cape, which the matador uses to attract the Bull. If you walk through a group of so called "fighting" bulls in a field you would be perfectly save as long as you do not prance up and down obviously and start annoying them. You could even walk around the bullring with a bull in it and would be safe, so fighting bulls they are not. The term is used to heighten the senses and feeling of excitement at these spectacles.
Patricia, I feel you have fallen for some of the misinformation about bullfighting.

They are, indeed fighting bulls and if you came across one on foot in the wild you would be killed. These bulls only ever see a man on horseback until the day they appear in the ring. They are bred to be totally aggresive to man.

I don't know where you got the idea that the bull involved with the mechanical digger was only 6 months old. Bulls are normally 5 years old when they go to the ring - sometimes when they are being fought by novice matadors they might be 3 years old - either way they weight about half a ton. There is no way a young bull would be allowed anywhere near an official bullfight.

If you watch the video you will see that it was the bull attacking the digger, not the other way round. As far as I can see, it was behaving exactly as one would expect a fighting bull to react and it repeatedly charged the digger - hardly a timid little bull.

Incidentally, when this situation occurs where the bull will not fight the matador it is usually removed from the ring by bringing in a small herd of cows. The bull them calms down and meekly leaves the ring with them - it doesn't happen very often but it is done this way in Portugal where they do not kill the bull so they have to have a safe method of getting the bull out. That said, there can be no excuse for using a digger in this way.

Nobody would dispute that bullfighting is cruel and I think it is pointless to keep reiterating all the negatives - nothing is going to change significantly. The original poster asked simply if anyone had been to a bullfight and what was it like - let's try and stick to the facts rather open up the "animal cruelty" debate as that will go on ad infinitum!

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Postby JAR1972 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:50 pm

Pirate, if you do want to make your own mind up about corridas and decide to go to one.

http://www.mundotoro.com

Click "Carteleria" to find out when and where corridas are taking place.

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Postby El Cid » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:30 pm

It's a very comprehensive site.

Try the Videos link and you can see highlights from the Madrid San Isidro Feria (all 23 days of it).

That will give you a pretty good idea of what happens in the average Corrida de Toros. You can then make up your own mind as to whether you want to pay to see the real thing.


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Postby pirate » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:15 pm

Wow interesting response,

I see so many bull rings around and they must hold thousands, and I saw a matador on TV the other day, they said he earned 650 000 Euros a fight, not bad for going in a ring with a drugged bull as some have said.

Every one I ever speak to condems it, I dont agree or like animal cruelty myself, but there are obviously thousands who do, however....

It seems very odd I am yet to meet anyone who does enjoy it, do you think that they dont like to admit it?
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patricia
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Re: bullfight

Postby patricia » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:58 pm

"Patricia, I feel you have fallen for some of the misinformation about bullfighting"

I am not misinformed at all. I have studied bullfighting and have been to a well known bull breeding farm and have seen the way they select and tests bulls etc. I have also been to bullfights and watched them on the television and so my view point is a totally balanced one.

"They are, indeed fighting bulls and if you came across one on foot in the wild you would be killed. These bulls only ever see a man on horseback until the day they appear in the ring. They are bred to be totally aggressive to man"

Bulls do indeed see men on foot. I have walked along with the manager of a well known bull breeding farm along the track and either side were "fighting bulls" who could see us quite clearly on walking along on foot, further these bulls are branded and also have their ears tacked an impossibe feat on horse back Sid, also stating that they are "bred totally to be aggressive to man" is a contradiction in terms, how can that be if they have never set eyes on one! It is true that they are tested by men on horse back with a spear and depending on their reaction they either go into the bull ring or are used for beef, but the main thing is that they will charge at a moving object if they were bred to attack man they would go for the body of the matador instead of the cape, it is that which they are bred to go for rather than the body of a man, if they really were bred to attack man there would be a lot more dead matadors about.

"If you watch the video you will see that it was the bull attacking the digger, not the other way round. As far as I can see, it was behaving exactly as one would expect a fighting bull to react and it repeatedly charged the digger - hardly a timid little bull"

We are not shown the whole event on the video, but apparently the digger tried to pick up the bull in order to remove it from the bull ring because it refused to "fight", obviously the poor thing attempted to defend itself, and it is obvious that the bull was completely confused and disorientated and I doubt if this is a mature bull in these small village "corridos" they use any bulls which are available for what they are prepared to pay or have the finances for.

They are normally 5 to 6 years old when they go into the bullring, that is the major bull fights, but I have noticed over the past few years that they are getting younger and smaller, this makes it easier for a "clean" kill.

It is easier to sanction the killing of these bulls if you believe that they really are dangerous, but I assure you you could walk among groups of "fighting" bulls and be perfectly safe.

Campo Kenny

Postby Campo Kenny » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:00 pm

I've been undecided about this subject but Patricias well made points and her way of putting them has certainly made me want to chuck a matador in with a hungry Bengal tiger 8)........now that would be a "fight" if these guys are that good................be even better throwing him in with Roberto Duran :wink:

Kenny

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Postby oliveview01 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:44 pm

I once (while on holiday in Spain) went to a ´display´ with the neighbours where I was staying- We were told that it was not a bull fight, it was a horsemanship display.......... Into the ring comes a small bull, with it´s horns rounded off, it was looking into the crowd like a puppy waiting for a stick to be thrown..... then the man on horseback came in and just walked up to the tiny bull and stuck the ´spear´ into the bulls back, then 2 more..... we left. I can honestly say that had to be one of the most revolting things I had ever seen, it wasn´t as if the bull was a big fully grown bull, and stood a chance of some sort, it was so small. We walked down the road and we could hear the crowd cheering as the bull was killed- We were all shocked by what we had seen. That wasn´t sport or art that was just torture.
My Spanish neighbours love the bull fights and watch every fight they can on tv, if they could afford it they would go to the fights.

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Postby JAR1972 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:05 am

pirate wrote:It seems very odd I am yet to meet anyone who does enjoy it, do you think that they dont like to admit it?
I enjoy going to the corridas...

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Postby lis48 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:21 pm

Me too and the majority of my English friends do as well. A lot of English go to the corridas here but I do think you need to study the art of bullfighting and have an open mind to properly appreciate them. If you enjoy going, I think you tend to keep quiet as nothing aficionados say is going to change the minds of some people. Good posts Sid.
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Re: bullfight

Postby JAR1972 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:22 am

patricia wrote:they are tested by men on horse back with a spear and depending on their reaction they either go into the bull ring or are used for beef
This is called Acoso y Derribo, and it's done in it's own right, not just to test bulls for the ring. During the Jerez feria they have Acoso y Derribo competitions out at the army stud farm on the way to Arcos.

More here (in spanish).
http://www.garrochistasdesevilla.com/

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patricia
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bull fighting

Postby patricia » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:48 pm

Of course you can enjoy the skill of the Matador and bull fights in general if you can divorce yourself from the plight of the animal, who is after all quite innocent and naive and caught up in something it doesn't want to be caught up in. People are asked to behave responsibly and not to patronize such events as a great deal of animal suffering is involved, also it perpetuates animal cruelty, and desensitizes individuals to the suffering of other mammals.


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