Compulsory fiscal representation ?

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Martin Page
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Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Martin Page » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:18 am

It has come round to that time again where I have to submit to the wealth tax ...

My gestors bill is 800E to pay 160E tax ....For two of us

In this current financial climate and the Icelandic bank going bump on us we now need to consider every euro very carefully.

Part of the gestors bill is for 250E for compulsory fiscal representation according to spanish law 19/1991 section 6
I seem to remember reading that this is only necessacery if you own two or more properties ...since we only have our casa and we are not earning anything in Spain - is it fair to ask for this charge to be dropped from the invoice ?

The modelo 214 form seems fairly straight forward -is this something that I can fill in and submit myeslf?
Where do you have to take the completed form to and how do you pay it ?
Where do I get the barcode stickers from ?
Can I get assitance from the tax office in completing the form if required?

This is for the tax year 2007 whats goingto happen next year with the demise of this tax

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hillybilly
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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby hillybilly » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:21 am

Ley 19/1991 was modified by Ley 58/2003 to say :

"Artículo 47. Representación de personas o entidades no residentes.

A los efectos de sus relaciones con la Administración tributaria, los obligados tributarios que no residan en España deberán designar un representante con domicilio en territorio español cuando operen en dicho territorio a través de un establecimiento permanente, cuando lo establezca expresamente la normativa tributaria o cuando, por las características de la operación o actividad realizada o por la cuantía de la renta obtenida, así lo requiera la Administración tributaria.

Dicha designación deberá comunicarse a la Administración tributaria en los términos que la normativa del tributo señale."

The sticky bar codes are issued by your local Hacienda office and you can make an appointment online to go and have your form(s) filled in at the office. You take the completed form to the bank and pay the tax(es).

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Martin Page
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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Martin Page » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:43 am

Thanks Hilly, But ....

Is it compulsory ?
....and can I ask for it to be removed since we are the very simplest case of one casa and no rental, or other, income in Spain ?

...or is it because the gestor is making the return on my behalf ?

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby katy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:16 am

The Gestor is ripping you off. If you search this forum there are threads on how to DIY and it only takes a few minutes to fill in the form. Even if you do pay someone to fill it in, it should cost much less than this. Marbella Lawyers don't charge a third of that figure.

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Paula » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:29 am

My gestors bill is 800E to pay 160E tax ....For two of us

I thought maybe you had mistakenly typed an extra "0" :shock:
Sack your gestor, ours charges less than 100E and we pay ten times more tax than you, with lots of other complications he sorts out!!

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Beachcomber » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:34 am

A while ago there was a whole thread about filling in the form 214. It is very easy and may become even easier next year if the government keeps to its promise of abolishing wealth tax.

I assume you have paid this year (for last year) so rather than go through the whole procedure of the criteria and calculations used for completing the current form it would probably be best to wait and see what happens and what the new form is like.

If it happens there may be a revised form 214 or it may just be that the reference to wealth tax will be left blank. Given this countries organisational abilities it may be half way through next year before we know.

The requirement for every non-resident to have a fiscal representative was abolished ten years or more ago. It now only applies if you have two or more properties in which case the form 214 cannot be used and the procedure is rather more complicated.
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Martin Page
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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Martin Page » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:53 am

Beach - Where is the thred for the filling in of the 214 form - I cant seem to find it.

I have not paid the gestor yet for the 2007 return - I am about to challenge their costs, so I need to be sure of my position before doing anything I may regret later

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Beachcomber » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:59 am

A lot of threads seem to have been lost in the transition to the new forum. If I am unable to find it I will PM a link to another forum which contains similar information.

I found the thread on another forum but I wrote it some time ago and some figures have changed since so I have copied it, amended it and pasted it as follows. I took it from my original post on A.com so I don't feel guilty about doing this:

This is a copy of a previous post I made on non-resident taxes:

The wealth tax (patrimonio) is calculated at 0,2%, up to €167.129,45 and on a sliding scale thereafter, of the highest of the three following values

Valor Catastral (rateable value)
Any revised value imposed by the tax authorities
Escritura value

The income tax (renta) is calculated at 24% of 2% of the valor catastral (1,1% if it has been revised since 1st January 1994).

The simplified 214 form can only be used if just one property is owned and a separate declaration has to be made in respect of each person named in the title deed with the base upon which the taxes are calculated divided by the number of owners. The taxes can be paid at any time during the year following that in which they become due at any bank.

If more than one property with a different referencia catastral is owned (even if it is just a lock-up or a garage) the declarations have to be done on form 714 for the patrimonio and for 210 for the renta and the declaration has to be made from the 1st May to 20th June in the year following that for which the taxes are due. It is still individual declarations for each owner. All of the properties may be listed on one form 714 for the patrimonio but a separate form has to be submitted for each property in respect of the renta.

If you rent out your property you should pay separate taxes on these rentals pro rata according to the number of days that it is rented.

Many non-resident property owners have ignored these taxes up until now but the tax authorities are now cross-checking property ownership with tax declarations so they are ignored at one's peril. Remember, they can claim back taxes for the past four years once you get caught.

Non-payment of these taxes will also prejudice any refund that is due from the 5% retention made on account of the seller's capital gains tax liability when the property is sold.


By the way, the form 214 used to be available online as a PDF document but it is now only available as 'presentacion telemática'. You need to buy them from the tax office but don't 'get a supply in' as they may change next year.
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Martin Page
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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Martin Page » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:38 am

Thanks Beach ....

That all makes sense - I bet a few others will be able to do this with an element of surity now.

On the 2007 return form the Patrimonio Tax is 0.2% of the valor

The Renta de no residentes is 24% - but the ' Base Imponible' figure that has no reference and diferent each previous year - this year its 117.71 Euro -2006 was 165.28 Euro with the valor remaining the same over the two years.
...so whats that all about ?

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Beachcomber » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:09 am

0,2% is correct as long as you are under the threshold of €167.129,45.

The base imponible for the renta (Box Nº 05) is calculated at either 2% or 1,1% of the valor catastral shown on your IBI receipt for the year in question. If your municipality has undergone a revision since 1994 it is 1,1%, if not it is 2%, then the 24% tax is applied to that figure.

This probably accounts for the fact that the figure is less for 2007 than it was previously, ie there was a revision in 2006 or 2007. The tax office publishes a list of the municipalities that have been revised (ie those to which 1,1% can be applied) annually. Chiclana de la Frontera appears on that list.
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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Stupot » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:59 am

I took the relevant papers for my non-resident friend to a gestor in Fuengirola whom I had never visited before. After a friendly chat in slow, very correct Spanish (the elderly gestor was an absolute gentleman), he did the paperwork there and then and charged the princely sum of 25€ for his services. My friend owns one house in Spain. His Marbella lawyer wanted to charge him 360€ for the same job!

It seems that not everyone is out to fleece the ex-pat!
Stupot

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Beachcomber » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:04 pm

Gestors are generally hardworking, reliable professionals.

Lawyers, with very few exceptions, are money-grabbing, unprofessional, unprincipled leeches.
Let's go Brandon!

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby DecorDiva » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:02 am

A friend of mine has just emailed me as his lawyer wants to charge him 400 euros for his tax and another 400 euros for his fee, is this extortion? He lives in the UK but can he do this tax himself, who would he contact to get hold of the forms and when does this tax have to be paid by. His lawyer is saying he needs the money transferred today as he has to pay it by the 31st December 2008? Any advice would help yet again, I don't know what I would do without you guys :)

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby DecorDiva » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:02 am

A friend of mine has just emailed me as his lawyer wants to charge him 400 euros for his tax and another 400 euros for his fee, is this extortion? He lives in the UK but can he do this tax himself, who would he contact to get hold of the forms and when does this tax have to be paid by. His lawyer is saying he needs the money transferred today as he has to pay it by the 31st December 2008? Any advice would help yet again, I don't know what I would do without you guys :)

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Jool » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:16 am

It would help if you could say which tax, and where your friend´s property is as someone could then recommend a local gestor to do this for them, it sounds as though the solicitor has ****ed up anyway if there is such a rush for the end of the year.....

Money can normally be paid direct to the tax office from any spanish bank account, does your friend have one, if so he can fax over the forms etc and ask the bank to do the transfer and send him back the receipt

Solicitors are feeling the pinch as well so seem to be charging higher fees for simple things......

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Beachcomber » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:17 am

Yes, the deadline for payment of the non-resident taxes for 2007 is the 31st December 2008.

A fee of €400 is extortionate. The absolute maximum for two people should be in the region of €150.

The tax can be paid at any time during the whole year following that for which it is due, ie. any time in 2008 for 2007. The forms are obtained from any AEAT (tax) office and may be filled in by hand. Payment is made at any bank.

The actual tax due depends upon the escritura value and the valor catastral of the property so it is impossible to say whether €400 is correct.

Edit:

I was compiling my post as Jool posted. I assumed the tax referred to is the non-resident wealth tax and income tax. If this is not so please confirm.

Just another thought, is there anyone whom he trusts currently in Spain who could do the taxes for him, other than his rip-off merchant lawyer, if he provides the information required? He could then transfer the necessary funds.
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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby DecorDiva » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:32 am

Yes it is his non resident wealth and income tax. I know he has a spanish account here with the Halifax. His property is in Las Lomas in Marbella. What forms would he need to get hold of to fax over, sounds interesting if he could just get his bank to pay it for him instead of this rip off lawyer, I know this lawyer and have to say I would not use him now

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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby Beachcomber » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:54 am

I am sure faxed copies would not be acceptable. The forms required are Modelo 214 only available from the tax office.

Just a suggestion but you could obtain the required forms, fax or email a copy to him as an attachment, get him to fill it (them) in and them back, you could then copy the details onto the original form(s), take them to a bank and pay them. It does not have to be his own bank, if you pay in cash any bank will accept the payment.
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Re: Compulsory fiscal representation ?

Postby DecorDiva » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:47 pm

OK this is all very helpful thank you very much, where would I pick up the Modelo 214? Is there a form I can download or do I have to go to the tax office? Would it be the Hacienda I would go to?

If he could get his lawyer to fax him the form he already has under the pretence he would to like to see the actual details already on it and I can fill it in for him, would he have to sign it though?


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