Planning for old age in Spain

[katy]

Getting back to the thread title...Old age in Spain

There was a sad article in Sur in English today. A British woman in Estepona had been wandering the streets, she is in her sixties and suffering for Alzheimers. The landlady of the apartment she was renting had thrown her out. The British Consul traced her Daughter who does not want to become involved....

[louise225]

Now I don't think that would happen in a Spanish family??? From what I've seen Spanish families seem to stick together no matter what. I can't believe any daughter could do that. Although not knowing the situation, I probably shouldn't judge.

[Bongtrees]

Getting back to the thread title...Old age in Spain

There was a sad article in Sur in English today. A British woman in Estepona had been wandering the streets, she is in her sixties and suffering for Alzheimers. The landlady of the apartment she was renting had thrown her out. The British Consul traced her Daughter who does not want to become involved....

There is an even sadder report in the UK press today

A husband who battered his elderly, frail wife to death walked free from court today.

Joan Holland's body had 126 separate injuries when police found her naked and bleeding at the family home in Lancashire.

Neighbours heard her husband James of nearly 50 years repeatedly hitting her and calling her a 'stupid f****** bitch' in the months before he killed her on January 7.

Retired miner Holland, 75, was described in court by his daughter as 'overbearing' and someone whose wishes had to be complied with.

He admitted manslaughter - which carries a maximum life punishment - and was today given a 51 weeks sentence suspended for two years.

[katy]

Well, I don't think it would happen in most British families either! Reports this week (Spain) say there has been a massive increase in people applying for homes for elderly parents.

Bongtrees that's awful, that Judge wants sacking. That murderer has probably been a tyrant all his life.

[louise225]

there has been a massive increase in people applying for homes for elderly parents

I read that as "shove them in a home, so they can get on with their own lives" !!

I do agree though, that very few British people would completely disown their parents if they were in need, but I still think the family spirit is greater in Spain.

[Kathy]

Back to the thread again

Through the eyes of a GP

One of my neighbours is a Spanish GP and chatting with him, he cant believe how the non Spanish dont seem to care about the elderly. He told me that many of his elderly patients are helpless, some with very little knowledge of the Spanish Language and no family to care for them.

Its been a real eye opener from him, when he asks elderly patients who do have family either in other European countries or in Spain, that the family dont seem to have the same moral family code to care for elderly relatives. Its very difficult to obtain a place in a nursing home even for the Spanish and most non Europeans have to rely on elderly friends, some as frail as themselves and in the worst case their only visitors are staff from the care centres itself.

He claims that some of the situations are truly heart breaking.

[Lavanda]

I think there's a bit more behind all this as I understand it. In Spain, as in Germany and possibly other countries, if an elderly member of your family goes into a 'care' home every member of the family has to pay towards that care. The family ethic might be strong in Spain but so are the laws of inheritance and keeping money in the family. Many old people are cared for within a Spanish family not because places in a home are hard to find but because it's cheaper. It's always easy to quote individual cases but they can only provide a tiny snapshot of the situation. For example, I have a friend in her 60s who is English but has lived most of her life in Spain. Her, English, elderly Mother, 93, has lived with my friend for many years but has recently gone into a very nice home in the same village because my friend could no longer cope with her Mother's increasing dementia. She visits her Mother daily but there was no problem or difficulty with getting her Mother into the home. The Mother's pension pays for the care and my friend also pays an amount. Simple.

I think to be old with NO family AT ALL is fine if you are healthy with all your marbles but otherwise, surely it's difficult in ANY country? Some 'care' home stories in the UK are horrible and I wouldn't put anyone, even my worst enemy, in some of them. Would you?

[oliveview01]

We were in the situation where my mother had to come to live with us due to a terminal illness. The stress that was put upon us with the care of my mother was unbelievable, due to the dementia she developed (cancer in her bones, going to her brain and the mix of morphine too, not good) I hope to god that I never have to put my family through the same stress we had. When the time comes and we are unable to live here we will sell up and move to a small flat either in Spain or the UK, and hopefully we will be able to afford to employ someone to look after us!
My MIL is elderly and frail and refuses all help from Social Services, she would be more than happy to have her son move back and look after her, as long as it isn´t an ´outsider´ looking after her!

[Bongtrees]

I think there's a bit more behind all this as I understand it. In Spain, as in Germany and possibly other countries, if an elderly member of your family goes into a 'care' home every member of the family has to pay towards that care.

Its the same in the UK.

[Devils Advocate]

What's the same

DA

[Bongtrees]

What's the same

DA

paying for care for mater or pater

unless one is v.poor

[Devils Advocate]

We know that but I thought you were trying to say the family had to fund it

DA

[Lavanda]

... that everyone in the family has to pay for an elderly person's care in the UK as well, is what he means I guess.
Is it true? Don't think so.

[Devils Advocate]

No Lavanda, not true again ..How would they get that to work anyway
Sad fact is though that the poor person who does have to go into a home in the UK has to run their assets (including house) down to £18000 before the state steps in, yet someone in the next room who's never had a house or savings in their lives or even worked hard will be state funded from day one...now that's unfair!

DA

[Lavanda]

Yep! Good old UK socialist values! Totally unfair. That's one of the reasons we left. Work hard all your life, pay taxes to support others who do nothing, etc. etc. Read a very interesting article by someone or other who said that the 'Survival of the Fittest' rules made civilizations great. That's all going wrong now that the less able, capable, whatever, are being helped to survive at the expense of the fittest. All sounds a bit right-wing eugenics to me but ... it's got me thinking. Anyone read Ayn Rand's book 'Atlas Shrugged'? Supposed to be one of the seminal books of the last century.

[peteroldracer]

I certainly think that there can be a more caring attitude here in Spain, if lots of places are like our little village, anyway. Our neighbour opposite (84 on '3 Kings' night) dropped in with some eggs for us, asked if my OH's Neuralgia was better, said she was "regular, regular" herself, told us about another neighbour who had had to be taken to hospital by his son, with pains in his legs, then on seeing the son return with his dad, set off to totter round and see if they needed anything, as did we later. This sort of looking out for each other happens all the time, and is very different to my experience of the UK, even though the folk of Leeds are much more likely to recognise their neighbours than 'daaarn sarf' where I was born and brought up.
Maybe our "new poor" status (see other thread!) helps them to include us more as villagers, but it does encourage us to think that we are, and will be better off here in Spain than in the UK.

[Devils Advocate]

No Lavanda you are right, we're brought up with "fair labour" working class values and you do your uppermost to abide by those values........A Doctor is entitled to have a better car than a binman but the binman should earn enough to pay his way and be happy, great world that would be.

However it's all changed, you make good for yourself still clinging to the old labour ethics but they get squoze out of you. Every bum in the world wants what Richard Bransons got and with no effort or talent to assist their quest.
I'll put my hand up and admit I've gone against all principle and become a right wing snob......something my father would turn in his grave at.
The more the do-gooders try to equal the balance and erode differentials between the do'ers and the none do'ers the more right wing I go.

I'm all for fairness but the balance has shifted from helping the less fortunate to penalising people who've paid in full and are trying to enjoy what they've achieved...........if it get's much easier for people to ask for help then where is the motive to help yourself going?...............down the tubes that's where.
Jealousy is rife too in mountains through this new "why should they?, Why can't I?" attitude...........The chavs talk up what they have and successful folk lie and talk down what they have to avoid the red faced jealous filled hate that exudes from many of this unfortunate ilk.

V.Meldrew rant mode off now, apologies

DA

[peteroldracer]

I've gone against all principle and become a right wing snob......something my father would turn in his grave at.

My late ex-father-in-law - born into mill-worker family in Silsden, Yorkshire, went to grammar school then Oxord at same time (and in the same branch of the Communist Party as Wilson and Healey), became Head of Ripon Grammar School and fought off Barbara Castle's attempts to communise all good schools - used to say "If you are not a Socialist in your teens you are uncaring - if you are not a Tory when you are mature you are ignorant".
He had no time for the duplicity of the likes of Callaghan, who claimed to be a socialist whilst owning a large chunk of Britain, or Harold Wilson, who developed his working-class accent well after leaving university.

[katy]

Yep! Good old UK socialist values! Totally unfair. That's one of the reasons we left. Work hard all your life, pay taxes to support others who do nothing, etc. etc. thinking .

Don't you think you have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire, no-ones going to care for you here.

Yes Peter and DA I agree with what you are saying. We are living in the "I want it all. without any effort" era.

[Lavanda]

I don't agree Katy, as we are already being looked after here. Like Peter, we live in a small village where things ARE different from the Costas. We ARE included and cared for like the rest of the village. I know you are not going to have it, Katy, but some lucky people DO get on with life in Spain. On Saturday 27th I'm having a traditional English Christmas tea and have invited 50 friends, all Spanish but 8 people (and they are German and Dutch) as some small recompense for all the kindness, advice, help, friendship, vegetables, cakes, you name it we have had it, this last year. It's impossible to describe what life is like here as you seem to set your face against the possibility of something simple, decent and nice happening to one of us.

Katy, come and visit me. Let me show you something good.