Mayors facing prosecution

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katy
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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby katy » Wed May 20, 2009 2:41 pm

I would take Julians advice too..except I would WORRY!

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Lavanda » Wed May 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Whatever else you do DON'T worry. Think bird flu, swine fever, plague, pestilence, earthquakes, falling pound, global warming, rise of the BNP, bankruptcy, choking on soup, terrorist attack, getting a bad haircut, nuclear war, loosing your marbles, falling in love with a sheep, all that stuff. Just don't go there. Worry about it when it happens. Enjoy today. :D

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metalmonkey
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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby metalmonkey » Wed May 20, 2009 3:16 pm

Just keep your head don't and for goodness sake (in my experience) don't give the Junta any excuse to take a close look at you,
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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby julian » Wed May 20, 2009 3:18 pm

"except I would WORRY"
I can understand someone finding it difficult not to worry about something even if there is nothing they can do about it..but to actually choose and prefer to worry !!!


if a problem has a solution then there is no need to worry about it
and if a problem has no solution then what is the point of worrying about it

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Lavanda » Wed May 20, 2009 3:49 pm

EXACTLY.

(My old boss-from-hell used to pile on the work. If I thought I could do it I would worry and panic and work like crazy to do it. If the pile of work became so insane I wouldn't be able to do it in a hundred years - I stopped worrying. It was weird. I simply didn't worry as it was outside my control or ability. Nothing ever happened. In the end HE got the sack! :lol: :lol: :lol: )

katy
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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby katy » Wed May 20, 2009 3:52 pm

Lavanda wrote:Whatever else you do DON'T worry. Think bird flu, swine fever, plague, pestilence, earthquakes, falling pound, global warming, rise of the BNP, bankruptcy, choking on soup, terrorist attack, getting a bad haircut, nuclear war, loosing your marbles, falling in love with a sheep, all that stuff. Just don't go there. Worry about it when it happens. Enjoy today. :D
None of those are as bad as having your home declared illegal :wink: :lol:

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Jool » Wed May 20, 2009 5:54 pm

They are discovering so many illegal or not fully properties that to demolish them all would be impossible and cause disaster.....so unless it is in an area that causes danger to anyone else or your town hall is not in same political party as the JDA (which is what happened with the Priors) and there is active disagreement between the two........

So don´t worry, even if the worst was declared, which I doubt from what you say, then you could be long dead by the time they get to pursuing you......unless you are a worry addict like Katy 8) :lol:

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Bongtrees » Wed May 20, 2009 6:13 pm

I think anyone living with such uncertainty will worry.

What if they want/need to sell?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Jool » Wed May 20, 2009 6:23 pm

Nothing HAS happened to them yet, they have not been contacted, its only that their mayor is being prosecuted but it does not necessarily mean that their property is affected....... mayors all over Spain are being arrested it seems to me........... :shock: :shock:

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Beachcomber » Wed May 20, 2009 6:40 pm

There are some exceptions but, generally, any building licence issued in Andalucía for a rural property since January 2003 is very likely to be invalid.
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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Jool » Wed May 20, 2009 9:54 pm

Brightspark - was your property built on rural land?

Beach - so who is actually liable then, logic says the town hall or the mayor but this is Spain of course, and Andalucia in particular?

What is your opinion about property built on land that is urbana non consolidada as opposed to rustic? Does the 2003 dividing line still apply?

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Beachcomber » Wed May 20, 2009 11:12 pm

This was covered by the Ley 7/2002 de Ordenación Urbanística de Andalucía of the 17th December 2002.

The following is only a précis of my interpretation but it is pretty clear to me that Town Halls which issued building licences on rural land after the cut-off date of January 22nd 2003 for dwellings did so in contravention of this law.

Some have tried to use the POT plan to extend the urban envelope so that many of these buildings may be legalised but the Junta has already rejected the Torrox one and may reject many more.

To go back to the case of the Priors for a moment, the Junta came unstuck here because the permission was applied for and appeared in the Provincial Bulletin in October 2002 which was not only prior to the cut-off date but also prior to the date of the passing of the law. They say that the licence was not issued until later in 2003 but my understanding is that the relevant date was that of application not of issue.

Of course, many of these properties were built with legitimate Town Hall permission but for an agricultural building not for a dwelling but that's another story.
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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Lavanda » Thu May 21, 2009 6:55 am

Interesting, Beachcomber. We found out after quite a struggle that registration of parcelas of land BEFORE the date of the X, Y or Z law was enacted made the land exempt from the law. Laws here, especially, as relating to any 'ley del suelo' do not seem to be retrospective. It's almost impossible to work out what is going on in any rural situation IN GENERAL as there's no such thing. Only individual situations. Perhaps, if the building is on rural land an idea might be to check in the local register of properties when the land was first registered. Check the Normativas of the municipality. They will be on-line. Changes in laws AFTER that date won't apply.

N.B. In my understanding, of course.

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby chrissiehope » Thu May 21, 2009 9:00 am

Beachcomber wrote:......
The following is only a précis of my interpretation but it is pretty clear to me that Town Halls which issued building licences on rural land after the cut-off date of January 22nd 2003 for dwellings did so in contravention of this law. ......
Beach - does this refer to only new buildings on rural land, or does it include reforms of buildings that were already there ? :?
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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Beachcomber » Thu May 21, 2009 9:37 am

Certainly not in my area. I know of several people who had purchased and registered plots of rural land with the intention of building which would have been possible at the time of purchase but not after the cut-off date of the law and they have been left with nothing more than very expensive allotments.

Obviously the LOUA does not apply in Extremadura as it is an Andalucían law.

I'm not sure about reforms. It is said that reforms within the original footprint were OK but who knows?
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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Jool » Thu May 21, 2009 12:05 pm

So what is the score then Beach as it would seem that the mayors made themselves liable by breaching Andalucian law in issuing the licences? Or would it be argued that solicitors, known to be lax in the past, should have advised everyone to get their permission also approved by the JDA?

It is all such a mess that really that is why I don´t think it is worth worrying about as it is just a minefield with some potential soft landings where you can´t see them......there is nothing you can do about it until some proper clarification on what is legal and what isn´t and how semi legal or illegal properties can be regularised etc......and to increase your own property´s profile in this climate is not advisable imho.

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Devils Advocate » Thu May 21, 2009 12:23 pm

I have a straightforward view on this now the issue has been going on for so long.

IMHO, if taxes have been collected, a yearly IBI is paid, Vivienda appears on escitura,Townhall gave permission, architects inspected it and JDA knew about it then even if they knock it down because of some hidden 2003 rule (which they won't) you will be paid out eventualy.

A lot of the "illegal" builds again IMHO are I believe known to be just that by the owners,i.e. photo of house on sigpac yet no details of it, non payment of taxes etc. etc.

As I say the powers that be (although I doubt it) may have a go at the buildings meeting the criteria in my first paragraph but they won't have a leg to stand on.

It ain't worth worrying about as posters have already said unless you know something's obviously wrong, it's quite easy to check the basics and then have a good nights sleep :idea:

Again and only IMHO, this is gearing up to a "mass tax windfall" to legalise a lot of already legal properties.
Well, if they come to me they can swivel :mrgreen:

I know for a fact too that the average ex pat/holiday home owner over there has no idea of things like this.........I wouldn't apart from this forum but we're probably in a minority of about .0000121%

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Last edited by Devils Advocate on Thu May 21, 2009 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby brightspark » Thu May 21, 2009 12:34 pm

The licence was issued in June 2003 which probably isn't good news reading the postings! Interestingly it had a start date (one year from issue) but no complete date. The land is rural and a licence for a house with a specified size, rather than almacen etc . I complied fully with the start date although It isn't yet completed, probably fortunately in some ways. I accept the comments about buying land being a gamble, but that is true of most things in life. All of us who relocated from another country took a gamble. I think my frustration which is echoed by postings is actually finding out any relevant information from source about anything. Also the fact that there is little point in finishing the property until I have the security that everything is ok. So the Spanish landscape will be blotted by another half finished building for some time to come!

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby Beachcomber » Thu May 21, 2009 12:36 pm

When I applied for my building licence, albeit long before 2002, I was told by the Town Hall that it would take some time as it had to be approved by the Junta which, I'm glad to say, it was.

As far as the lawyers are concerned, despite my profound distrust and utter contempt for their 'profession', they could really only be blamed if they knew that the building licence was for a shed rather than a dwelling and/or that it was being built on proindiviso land.

They should also, of course, have been aware of the change in the law but at that time one should have been able to legitimately assume that permission to build a dwelling given by a properly elected and constituted local authority could have been relied upon to be genuine as one should be able to have 'buena fe' in what is entered in the property register.

We all now know that this trust and good faith was absolutely misplaced and that the whole administration of the country is riddled with corruption from top to bottom with poor old Joe Public suffering the consequences.

Brightspark. do you know the date on which your application was submitted and did it appear in the Málaga provincial bulletin?
Let's go Brandon!

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Re: Mayors facing prosecution

Postby katy » Thu May 21, 2009 6:47 pm

I don't think they will demolish many. The worst thing for me would be knowing that you have an unsellable asset, particularly if it's the main home. My ex-hairdressers Father bought in Axarquia, finally paid 30,000 euro to legalise it (had to borrow the money) only to find it still wasn't legal!


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