Renovating a ruin

[aquaman]

Does anyone know the percentage one is allowed to increase the original building by?

[spanish_lad]

i thought it was 40m2 every 4 years. probably wrong tho

[pete_l]

For a brief time I was considering doing up a ruin. However the information I was given (note: NOT by the agent selling the place) was that I would not get permission to extend the build beyond the original foundations.
This was 5 years ago and rules might have changed - or may vary depending on location.

[El Cid]

The rules in Andalucia have tightened up, especially in non urban land.

I am pretty sure you can only reform to the same size and layout as the original.

I have also heard that, in some areas, if the house is a real ruin with no roof then you can do nothing at all.

Sid

[Wicksey]

I would be very, very cautious as I have heard the same as El Cid.

If it is a ruin and doesn't already have electricity or water connected, that also may prove to be a great difficulty.

Certainly in this area the town hall seems to be dishing out fines quite readily for the most minor changes/additions to a property as a number of my friends have found out to their cost. Also beware of the 24m2 'casita del aperos' that have metamorphised into little houses as we know someone who has received a huge fine (26,000€) for theirs and it hasn't even been extended. The town hall are saying that 'toolsheds' do not have kitchens and bathrooms and fining people accordingly.

Being a recent addict to goolzoom.com, I have also noticed that some older cortijos for sale around here have not had their land segregated from much larger plots. The owners have built new houses for themselves nearby and are now trying to sell off the original cortijo with a smaller plot of land, but the land still seems to part of the original much larger parcela which doesn't seem to be correct to me. It's all a bit of a nightmare!

[julian]

if the cortijo´s plot hasn´t been segregated in the catastro maps is doesn´t neccessarily mean that it hasn´t been segregated in the land registry..he registry is more important than the catastro.
people tend to give too much importance to the catastro plans, and worry if they are not correct, but it doesn´t really have much legal importance.

[Wicksey]

Julian, is there a way of checking the land registry entries on line? It's just that in my experience and some other friends with campo houses, it has been a copy of the plan from the catastro that has been included in the escritura as proof of the land boundaries. As far as I'm aware I haven't seen an extract from the land registry (and some friends say have never seen a plan of their land at all, which is a bit shocking).

[julian]

what you get online from the registry would not include maps
you would need to see your escritura to see if there is a map, and unless it is stated that the catastro map is included specifically to show the boundries, then I don´t think the catastro map would be proof of boundries, and in my opinion should not be used as proof of boundries.

the registry only states what your escritura states, if it´s not in the escritura then it´s not in the registry

[anis]

According to my lawyer, whom I met only last Friday about a similar thing - thus, hot of the press Julian is absolutely correct in what he says.
The land registry is the important part and the catastro is usually wrong because they were often not updated when properties exchanged hands.

[metalmonkey]

We rennovated from a ruin and we had to stick to the original size also your licence MUST be from the Junta not the town hall. You should also get a geotechnical study done (now required by law) some folks in our village have been refused insurance claims for not having the correct paperwork for their build...be careful and take good advice

[jimbothescot]

When we bought here in Almeria Province in Aug 2001,estate agents and lawyers were saying that with a ruin it was acceptable to increase the footprint by a maximum of 10%.
However,as we didn`t buy a ruin I never had to put that to the test.
In the light of recent events here,I would think it has now tightened up considerably.

Jimbo

[Jool]

It used to be that if the Architect was willing to state the building was 10 to 20% larger than it was, bearing in mind how inaccurate paperwork was you could get away with that much larger, now it is a lot stricter, footprint replacement only, need a certain percentage of roof still in situ (its tough on people who own cortijos as semi ruins and their roof tiles slowly get stolen as happens near us), permission from the Junta (which can take over 2 years) etc

[pete_l]

The thing is, for an extra 10% you're risking the whole shebang being declared illegal. If your ruin is (say)100m² - which would be quite big for an old house, then this equates to a smallish extra room: maybe 3m x 3m.
Also, although the price of houses has dropped considerably, has the cost of the renovation work dropped by the same amount? I was quoted around €1000 per square metre to get a pile of stones to a livable state. I reckon now, that if the ruin had cost me €20k, with another €70-80k for the reform (plus an additional €10-20k for provision of services, furnishing etc.) then these days I could buy a bigger and ready to move into house for the same amount. Since the cost of building work, furniture etc. has remained largely the same over the years. Plus, you won't geta vendor willing to knock 20k off the price of a 20k ruin
I don't think refurbishing a ruin affords you the same sort of cost savings that it might have done 5 years ago. Although if this is your hobby (i.e. you're specifically looking for a "project") then that's a different set of circumstances. But as a cheap way to get a place in Spain? Not any more.

[boblocksmith]

On a slightly different angle - if you had a ruin (and when is a ruin a ruin or a house?) is there any restriction to simply knocking it down? For eg. we have a ruin next door and if it ever was for sale it would make a useful garden area. On the other side is another not quite ruin with roof but no windows and probably not habitable - could this be knocked down (assuming I ever owned it) or would there be restrictions?

[Jool]

A ruin is a ruin when it cannot be renovated or repaired using some of the original building. Also if it has no roof it is now apparently no longer a ruin but a nothing. Unless a ruin is protected (unlikely) then if you own it you can demolish it. If it becomes dangerous as a structure you can be asked to demolish it and if you do not the town Hall will demolish it and then present the owner with the bill.

[hillybilly]

and don't forget you need a licencia de demolición/derribo...tho I've always wondered what they would do if you didn't have one? Make you rebuild the ruin?

[boblocksmith]

It seems to me that there isn't much that you don't need a licence for!

[pigs-might-fly]

The ruin should be sorted out by May 7th.