Are you thinking of selling up !

Do you have a query on how to get things done in Andalucia, where to find things, who to call? Find out by posting and hear about others experiences.
Miro
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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Miro » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:27 pm

I've refrained from posting on this topic before now, for fear I may turn into a ranting lunatic. But with what's happened to us recently, the answer to the question is "yes".
Healthcare entitlement cut off with no warning or explanation; refused a fiscal residency certificate from Hacienda with no explanation (see my separate posts on those topics if interested); asset reporting requirement next year - why do we need to report assets that we have already declared the income from? Asset taxing next, perhaps? 45% discount on our IBI for being on the padrón being scrapped this year; I seriously worry that our bank account may be frozen at any time for no apparent reason. I genuinely feel uneasy and vulnerable. Never thought I would, but I want to sell up and leave now. :cry:
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

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Devils Advocate
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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Devils Advocate » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:46 pm

It's got to be a mistake somewhere Miro surely.............only last week everyone was saying they qualify for free healthcare as a right :?

It is difficult though, I think the Spanish people on the whole are great, however the ones in a position of authority seem to be weapons grade f***wits. They still insist we own 2 villas there...........but when we ask "OK where's the other one then so we can sell it?" they're stuck for words. I ignore them and their letters and ramblings at all costs now, stick me on the Bolotin then, me knees are trembling :mrgreen:
Property owner in Andalucia since 2002. How time flies.

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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Footprint » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Hi Concorde and TJTops

Many thanks for your responses. I think we are 99% sure we will continue renting a while longer yet but all these factors need to be taken into account when taking the plunge.

Cheers again :)
You can spend, minutes, hours, days, weeks or even months over-analyzing a situation; trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could've, would've happened - or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the f**k on.

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Wicksey
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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Wicksey » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:24 pm

Miro wrote:why do we need to report assets that we have already declared the income from? Asset taxing next, perhaps? 45% discount on our IBI for being on the padrón being scrapped this year
Isn't there wealth tax here if you have assets above a certain amount (I think it's a high figure ....750,000€?) so is that why they need to see what your total worth is?

I have never heard of a discount on the IBI for being on the padron. We have always been on it whilst living here .... have we missed out on years of discount :( ?

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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby gerryh » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:56 pm

Wicksey wrote: I have never heard of a discount on the IBI for being on the padron. We have always been on it whilst living here .... have we missed out on years of discount :( ?
Probably not.
Some town halls give a discount if you are on their padron. Some town halls limit, or even reduce, the IBI bills, others increase it irrespective of whether you are on the padron or not.
So, depends which town hall sets your IBI bill.
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Miro
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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Miro » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:55 pm

Wicksey wrote: Isn't there wealth tax here if you have assets above a certain amount (I think it's a high figure ....750,000€?) so is that why they need to see what your total worth is?
Yes, but they now want to know about assets over 50K I think. Why? Surely so that they can look at new ways of taxing them?
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

"Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative," Mordecai Siegal 1935-2010.

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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby El Cid » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:04 pm

Miro wrote: why do we need to report assets that we have already declared the income from?

Because you have never reported the existence of the asset. Spanish tax declarations only ask you to declare the income that should be taxed. They never ask where the income came from - in fact they have no idea where any of your income comes from.

You are obliged to declare the property that you live in in Spain with the catastral reference number but that is mainly there to catch people who are letting their property and not declaring it as if the person renting it puts the reference on his tax declaration - gotcha!

Many people who use a gestor to do their tax returns dutifully provide exact details of their source of income with various forms such as the UK P60 etc but when the gestor submits their declaration all the paperwork is filed or more likely thrown in the bin.

Wealth tax has always been odd as you do not have to declare your wealth unless it exceeds the allowances. With income tax you generally have to declare the income even if it doesn't result in any tax being due.


Sid

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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Miro » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:13 pm

Understand all that perfectly. I just wonder, why now? As you say, we've never had to declare the actual assets that produce the income as such (even though, as you say, we dutifully provide statements etc. to our gestor, who dutifully bins them). If I have a bank deposit over 50K, and have always declared the income generated, what difference does it make if they now know exactly how much is deposited? I can only see that it can be because they want to invent a new way to tax not just the income, but the asset itself. Am I being over-suspicious?
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

"Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative," Mordecai Siegal 1935-2010.

El Cid
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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby El Cid » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:15 pm

Miro wrote:
Yes, but they now want to know about assets over 50K I think. Why? Surely so that they can look at new ways of taxing them?
They are just trying to find income generating assets that have not previously been declared - that is tax evasion. So yes, I think you are being oversuspicious apart from implications under the existing wealth tax laws.

There is no new tax proposed - all they are trying to do it get the tax that is owed by all the cheats and tax fiddlers that seem to think it is OK to ignore the law.

If you think Hacienda is being difficult then you should experience a HMRC tax investigation - really bad news. It makes the Spanish Inquisition look like a picnic! Luckily I don't speak from personal experience but a good friend went through it and it was not a lot of fun.

About the only people I know that may have a problem with this new requirement are ex-pats who have a house in the UK and rent it out without declaring it in Spain.

You are obliged to pay UK tax on the rentals but you also have to declare it in Spain and pay Spanish tax in the income but of course you can offset the UK tax paid.

That said it is very important that it is taken seriously as if you have €50k in total in "foreign" bank accounts, even if you are paying Spanish tax on the interest, you will be fined a minimum of €10000 for not declaring it. As I said in a previous post it is the asset that has to be declared even if it does not generate income or any income has already been taxed.

Sid

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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby tjtops » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:13 pm

Am I being over-suspicious?
I doubt it!! :roll:
My faith in Hacienda to deal a fair hand is matched only by my mistrust of ANYTHING new which emanates from either them, Junta de Andalucia or a local Town Hall.......and the day when they actually teach ALL their officials to apply the 'law' fairly and uniformly -- never mind make sure they all understand the law/rule in the first place -- I think is a long way off!! :wtf:
Cynical....moi??
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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby gus-lopez » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:06 pm

tjtops wrote:
Am I being over-suspicious?
I doubt it!! :roll:
My faith in Hacienda to deal a fair hand is matched only by my mistrust of ANYTHING new which emanates from either them, Junta de Andalucia or a local Town Hall.......and the day when they actually teach ALL their officials to apply the 'law' fairly and uniformly -- never mind make sure they all understand the law/rule in the first place -- I think is a long way off!! :wtf:
Cynical....moi??
+1
Todos somos Lorca.

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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby scampicat » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:21 pm

gus-lopez wrote:
tjtops wrote:
Am I being over-suspicious?
I doubt it!! :roll:
My faith in Hacienda to deal a fair hand is matched only by my mistrust of ANYTHING new which emanates from either them, Junta de Andalucia or a local Town Hall.......and the day when they actually teach ALL their officials to apply the 'law' fairly and uniformly -- never mind make sure they all understand the law/rule in the first place -- I think is a long way off!! :wtf:
Cynical....moi??
+1
+2!

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Mowser
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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Mowser » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Image
Dave

Miro
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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Miro » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:13 pm

+4
...and if they deduct 3% retention in lieu of capital gains tax on the loss we'll inevitably be taking when we do sell up, because Hacienda are refusing to issue a certificate of fiscal residency to extranjeros who have religiously filed their declarations for 15 years, then we'll just take it on the chin and tell ourselves we're cutting our losses and leaving the sinking ship.
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

"Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative," Mordecai Siegal 1935-2010.

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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Lavanda » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:20 pm

Answer to OP ... no!

Miro
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Re: Are you thinking of selling up !

Postby Miro » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:12 pm

El Cid wrote:About the only people I know that may have a problem with this new requirement are ex-pats who have a house in the UK and rent it out without declaring it in Spain.
Sid
I have just been chatting to a friend about another mutual acquaintance who owns 3 properties here in Spain - lives in one, rents the other two out, and never declared that income. It occurs to me that perhaps the Spanish authorities should be looking closer to home if they are trying to find taxable income that hasn't previously been declared. Surely that would be a much easier and quicker way to raise some revenue?

(This should be on the asset reporting thread probably)
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

"Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative," Mordecai Siegal 1935-2010.


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