Turning The Corner - Feeling on the ground

[Spartacus]

As my house is now sold (SSTC) our plans to move across next spring are moving along nicely. For about 9 months I have been watching the various news articles about the situation with illegal properties etc, latest announcements by politicians, latest court ruling in favour of a group of Brits and the reversal of their demolition order. These all bring me to wonder if indeed we are approaching a resolution to the current situation. I'm reading what snippets I can from afar and wonder what the feeling is on the ground so to speak. Are things turning the corner? Is there a resolution in sight? As I said, only looking for what you people already there think is happening.

[dxf]

Hi
The problem of illegal houses is vast; it affects many autonomous authorities. Here in Andalucía we may have made a step forward with the president Susana Diaz changing the Decree 2/2012 to allow some sort of regularisation. But the Decree doesn´t tackle the problems of houses within a PGOU town plan, only those outside that plan.

The problem of the houses inside a PGOU really boils down to the cost of adding the necessary services of water, sewerage, storm water, gas, telephones, internet cables etc. Then there is the cost of checking the house itself as if you were building it - with the various checks at each stage of construction.

Davexf

[Beachcomber]

Bear in mind that these properties are, at best, being 'regularised' not legalised. Do not, under any circumstances, rely on a Spanish lawyer to explain the difference to you.

There are some legal rural properties but they are very few and far between and will have been built before 2002.

[Spartacus]

Thanks people, Beachcomer what is the main difference from a buyers perspective, or where is the best place to get the definitive answer?

[Beachcomber]

If a property has merely been 'regularised' the purchaser would probably not be able to register the escritura in the property registry.

You need to see at the very least:

1.- A 'nota simple' (extract from the property registry).
2.- An extract from Catastro.
3.- The original building project and licence.
4.- The certificate of first occupation.
5.- The most recent electricity and water bills.
6.- The latest IBI (rates) receipt.

You can arrange to obtain 1 and 2 for yourself and the remainder will be provided by the seller (assuming he is the owner of a legal property). If you are unable to understand the contents of these documents get them translated by a proper independent translator who is familiar with the property conveyancing process.

That way you can be sure of finding out what you really need to know rather than being given a whitewashed version by someone who tells you only what they want you to hear.

[dxf]

Hola
if regularised I would not expect a certificate of first habitation

Davexf

[Beachcomber]

Yes, that is exactly my point in giving the list of requirements.

[carrowcrin]

If a property has merely been 'regularised' the purchaser would probably not be able to register the escritura in the property registry.

You need to see at the very least:

1.- A 'nota simple' (extract from the property registry).
2.- An extract from Catastro.
3.- The original building project and licence.
4.- The certificate of first occupation.
5.- The most recent electricity and water bills.
6.- The latest IBI (rates) receipt.

You can arrange to obtain 1 and 2 for yourself and the remainder will be provided by the seller (assuming he is the owner of a legal property). If you are unable to understand the contents of these documents get them translated by a proper independent translator who is familiar with the property conveyancing process.

That way you can be sure of finding out what you really need to know rather than being given a whitewashed version by someone who tells you only what they want you to hear.

Beachcomber, you seem to know about this stuff.
I do not ever remember seeing "certificate of first occupation"
My project was a total reform with the licence etc
I am wondering if i got this or if i should have and from who.

many thanks

[Beachcomber]

The certificate or licence of first occupation is issued by the town hall but if it was a very old property that was being reformed it probably will not have had one but should have had a certificate of antiquity instead.

As long as you have a project certified by the college of architects and a properly issued building licence from the town hall this will not be a problem.

[Spartacus]

Fantastic response Beachcomer, very many thanks.

[luckyjim]

Also, Carrowcrin you can access the land registry and check the plot you are trying for. Make sure all of the land relates to your property. There are some pointers on one of the discussions on You and the Law in Spain.

[mujer]

It has always seemed to me that the European Consumer Rights law had not been followed when thousands of foreigners bought their house.
They were sold a product that was illegal, paid taxes on it, had crucial information witheld from them like the LOUA and rustic land being non-urban land, etc etc.
Central government as I understand it say that they apply the law from EU, but the autonomous regions have their own laws.
This appears to be a way of circumventing EU law.
Presumably all other countries could do the same then, with other products, let's say regions could issue illegal driving licences, set up car franchises regionally and sell expensive illegal cars

[Beachcomber]

In my opinion it is even worse. Take note that the properties were not declared illegal until the purchasers had paid all of their money to the corrupt mayors, architects, developers and lawyers etc and the Junta de Andalucía had quite happily accepted transfer taxes on the illegal properties which surely rendered them guilty of obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception which they denied by claiming that they did not know the properties were illegal at the time. Well, if they didn't know how the hell could they expect a bunch of naive, foreigners who had put their trust in members of the Spanish legal 'profession' to know?

The whole thing stinks of corruption and prejudice and they think they can make it right by 'regularising' some of these properties expecting that the owners will be so grateful their houses will not be demolished that they will overlook the fact that they will never be able to sell them or leave them as an inheritance.

[carrowcrin]

Also, Carrowcrin you can access the land registry and check the plot you are trying for. Make sure all of the land relates to your property. There are some pointers on one of the discussions on You and the Law in Spain.

i do not have land just a town house, i only became aware of this document recently and there was some messing around when the water was being connected but i am now thinking it may be related to this, the property and all the utilities are all in my name so no problem there.
the only concern i have is that i do not believe i have either a copy of the build licence or this certificate of first occupation, the licence may be there with all the papers, also i am not sure if it is important for me to have if i wanted to sell an option that is extremely unlikely as i love it.

thanks

[Beachcomber]

Do you mean you have a renovated town house? If the house was very old there will probably be no certificate of first occupation but there should have been a project and a licence for the renovation. Also if the house no longer matches the description in the escritura and, by definition, the property registry (as opposed to Catastro) you should arrange for an escritura de obra nueva to be granted before a notary.

It would be in your interest to ensure this is done whether or not you want to sell.

[carrowcrin]

Thanks for all the info.
The licence was got for the renovation and i assumed that this is registered in the town hall and that everything would automatically follow on and it may have as the IBI did increase on the property around the time of the project which in assume means the town hall have updated my house as to the new work.
I will start diggin through the papers now that i have an idea as to what i am looking for...

thanks

[Beachcomber]

The town hall and Catastro work together to some extent which is why your IBI will have increased but any amendment to the details held in the property registry would be separate and would not be done by the town hall.

As I said before, if there has been any substantial change in the layout, etc. of the property an escritura of new work will need to be carried out before a notary and the new escritura registered in the property registry.

If you had someone managing the whole project this should have formed part of his/her work on your behalf but if you arranged everything else yourself you will also need to arrange this.

If you have all the necessary paperwork you can take it to a notary and he will arrange for the new escritura to be granted. There would obviously be notary and registration fees plus the tax on legal documents but this is only currently 1,5% of the value of the renovations as opposed to the 8%, 9% or 10% for the purchase of a property.

I know you are not intending to sell at the moment but this will work in your favour from a capital gains tax aspect if and when you come to sell because if you do not do the escritura de obra nueva your capital gain will be on the difference between the original purchase price as shown in the escritura and the sale price and the outlay for the renovation will not be computed in the CGT calculations.

[Beachcomber]

Spartacus, we seem to have drifted away from the point of your original post but I hope all this is of some help to you.

[chrissiehope]

We did things in a typically naive way - had a minor works licence (of which I now only have a photocopy, and when last asked the Town Hall couldn't find it in their records ), then had a colegio architect draw up a set of plans reflecting the new layout/size (tho' the plans contain several errors )

Then we had an escritura de obras nuevas done, we were given the option to increase the value of the house, as the floor area (not the footprint) had increased. The increase in value was subject to tax (can't remember the rate offhand , but could look it up if important), but we went ahead ,because as Beachcomber says, it will reduce CGT when we (sadly) come to sell.

We also got a certificate of antiquity, as the original house was at least 60 years old.

Carrowcrin - you may not want to sell, but who will inherit, and would they want to sell ?

[carrowcrin]

spartacus, sorry if i have kinda sidetracked your topic but this is info i really needed and did not know where to look so thanks to this post i am pretty well up to speed.

My project was done by architect and presented to the town hall for licence, it was deemed not necessary to present to the colegio architect as it was a reform and the front of the building is as original, i will check to see if i have copy of original licence as i know i have the plans.
Now that i have all the info from this princably from beachcomber i will be able to figure it out for myself but because the IBI has increased i am now thinking all is up to date.

Crissie, as regards what they do when i go to live with god is not really a problem for me.

regards and thanks