Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

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McT
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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby McT » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:21 pm

Torrox_campo wrote:TBH I have no problem with Endesa.
Neither do I really, apart from their outragious standing charges of course. It's the local agent that causes me to lose the will to live. I should go to another office, but it's handy for going back to the house twice for the documents they didn't tell me they wanted......
Torrox_campo wrote:...they came to adjust the meter for this new power.
Did they actually do something to the meter, or change it? Or did they just change the fuse in the meter box? Sorry, I tend to look over tradesmen's shoulders when they're doing stuff at my house - I bet they all hate me. Perhaps you just left him to it!

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby McT » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:29 pm

When we did the reform, we were told we had to run an extra wire (red, 1.5mm2) between the consumer unit and the meter box, for some future function. This we did, but it hasn't been used with the new meter. Does anyone have any idea what it's for?

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby gerryh » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:41 pm

According to the electrician who installed a new power supply to my house the thin red cable is there ready for the day they start remotely reading the meters.
Mine isn't connected to at either end as yet. The meter reader still comes around on his motorbike.
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McT
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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby McT » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:17 pm

gerryh wrote:According to the electrician who installed a new power supply to my house the thin red cable is there ready for the day they start remotely reading the meters.
I think this is unlikely. AMR (Automatic Meter Reading) in Spain is via PLC (Power Line Communication). A concentrator in the electricity substation communicates with the meters by sending commands and receiving data over the power distribution cables. So the communication is on the substation side of the meter, not the consumer unit side.

The only thing I can think of is for it to be connected to a display in the house which would give information about current and historic power usage. However, that function can easily be achieved with an induction sensor (ammeter) round the live feed in the fusebox. A few years ago they were given away free by some UK power companies - I have one here in Spain. But it wouldn't surprise me if this extra wire was destined for some new function that has since been abandoned.

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby Torrox_campo » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:16 pm

Torrox_campo wrote:...they came to adjust the meter for this new power.
Did they actually do something to the meter, or change it? Or did they just change the fuse in the meter box? Sorry, I tend to look over tradesmen's shoulders when they're doing stuff at my house - I bet they all hate me. Perhaps you just left him to it!
The meter is outside on the gate post and all the changes were done here!
When I requested to downgrade to 5.75KW they said some guy will come out, but I told him that we are going to UK soon, they said so long the meter is outside they can do the change from there. I am still in England and have been checking the change of contract via Endesa website and it was changed to 5.75 kw before last Christmas and they only charged the 6.9kw for 12 days the rest was 5.75kw.

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby TorreDelAguila » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:52 am

We have a smart meter, and Actaris ACE6000, made in France, metering our 3-phase 13kW dual-tariff supply.

I have a full operation user guide for the meter, downloaded from the internet, which I obtained after it was installed several years ago. This followed a couple of problems with it:
- inability for us to read units used for Hi and Lo periods; only a total displayed (still unresolved)
- an error (which existed for 1+ weeks) with the meter's clock showing incorrect time of day - pretty damn serious for dual tariff, when 70% of consumption is off-peak! (Endesa denied this had ever happened, despite an out-of-character bill, and refused action, despite the intervention of the Consumer Office.)

The manual makes interesting reading. It confirms that readings can be taken (and reprogramming done) by any of the following methods:
- down-the-line (incoming supply cables and network)
- by the meter being quizzed over the mobile phone network
- by a meter reader using an infra-red hand-held reader
- by a meter reader connecting with a plug-in reader, to the meter's serial port.
It also allows a meter reader to read hundreds of installed meters (eg within an apartment complex) in under a minute, by connecting to a single point.

A comprehensive set of reporting and monitoring is built into the meter, including peak usage, high power factor usage, voltage variation, and so forth. It is also equipped with sensors to log and report on tampering and disconnection, and exposure to magnetic fields.

My guess is that at the moment local Endesa only make use of a fraction of the meter's capabilities. Manual readings still take place, but at what seem to be irregular intervals. Because of the earlier unresolved meter issues with Endesa, I did install a conventional (rotating disc) supplementary meter of my own, in order to keep a check on the total units used. In practice, the two meters show readings within 2% of each other. You can guess which one shows the slightly higher reading though!

Don"t know about the red cable described. Possibly a means of the meter being able to trip out the RCCD (safety trip) in the house, in certain circumstances. Such 'disconnection' would lessen the likelihood of the consumer from automatically calling Endesa about disappearance of supply, and focus them on their consumer unit instead. I can see the attraction of this...

Suspicious as always . . .
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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby gruff » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:42 pm

Someone mentioned earlier being able to get more info. from the online bill. Quite true. You can show consumption for any particular day, hour by hour. It also shows different prices per unit depending upon what time of day it was. I thought I was being charged a fixed rate per kwh? Apparently not.

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby gerryh » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:55 pm

Just had a look at my online bill and clicked the "show consumption" for my last bill.
Got message that I cannot view the hourly consumption because I don't have a hourly billing contract.
This is true I have a normal contract.
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gruff
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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby gruff » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:02 pm

I've no reason to think I don't have a normal contract Gerry. You wrote earlier your meter is still read manually whereas I believe mine is "automatic".

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby Campo Steve » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:54 pm

I was told by an ele trician that the extra cable was for connecting a second meter if you go onto the day night tarif, not required now that the digital meters are being installed.
I've got an inferiority complex, but it's not a very good one!

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby TorreDelAguila » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:44 pm

For dual-tariff (dH, day/night) the previous arrangement was a dual-display meter (units Hi, units Lo) with an electric timeswitch placed by its side. The separate timeswitch flipped the meter from one display to the other. As such there was no additional wiring running between meter and house; everything was located in the (double-width) meter cupboard.
Chris

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby gus-lopez » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:19 am

Once the meter is being read remotely, normally 6 months after installation. then unless you are on a day/night tariff you will be billed on the new 'hourly usage' system whereby those using it in peak demand periods pay the most.
When they change the meter they can only put it where it is now unless they pay for all necessary work. They cannot legally ask you to pay or refuse to install it .
Our meter is not only inside the property but inside the house itself. There was no question of it being moved anywhere .
They can only insist on it being moved outside/new cupboard installed ,etc; if you request an alteration to the contract etc; & it requires a new boletin.
Once fitted they normally change to auto reading after 6 months . The meter reader will still come at least once a year , normally twice , to the accuracy :lol:
Once auto reading then unless on dual tariff it will automatically go to hourly billing.
To reset after a trip you have to turn the power off & then back on again.
personally it gets better every time , we are with Iberdrola , & now with hourly billing the bill is down to about 43€ :thumbup: of which about 35€ is standing charge , electricity tax, green tax, IVA,
Todos somos Lorca.

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gruff
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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby gruff » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:55 am

Looking at the Endesa website the hourly details are there to see (beware, it can be obsessive!) but looking at my latest bill it looks like I'm still paying a basic rate per unit.

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby Stevemul » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:15 pm

Some smart meters have been fitted to directly replace the old type meters in clear plastic boxes, sealed by Endesa. Usually situated by the entrances to urbanisation properties, these allowed the meters to be read easily without opening the boxes.
The new smart meters fitted to our urbanisation properties show a continuous red light when the properties are NOT drawing any power. The red light flashes when power IS being drawn.
The security issues are obvious! I have written to our El Presidente and am awaiting a reply!

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby wollie » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:39 am

Enrique wrote:Hi McT,
What happened to your original ICP, the one that was fitted a few years back........ :?:

We had Smart Meter fitted last year, the ICP is still in place and will trip if I go over 3.3Kw.

The Smart Meter can be programmed remotely, but having said that the Engineer was out last month to Read the meter as it wasn't sending info back to Base, he had quite a few to read in the area.
does anyone know how the info is transferred from the meter to base system as I am curious to know...

thanks

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby McT » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:22 am

wollie wrote: does anyone know how the info is transferred from the meter to base system as I am curious to know..
It's called Power Line Communications (PLC). Just as a telephone line can carry a low frequency telephone call and a high frequency internet connection at the same time, without the two interfering with each other, so can electricity supply cables carry the low frequency AC power and data at a higher frequency.

There are two minor problems though - the first is that the supply cables are connected in parallel with everyone else's and the second that the data signal can't pass through the transformer at the electricity substation. There is a 'concentrator' at the substation which is connected to the power company's computers either via a telephone line, or maybe to the upstream power line via a mechanism for bypassing the transformer.

In a simple sytem, each meter 'listens' on the common data connection and if it doesn't detect another meter transmitting, it will send its reading. This is called Carrier Detect Multiple Access (CDMA) and is the same system used on a LAN or WiFi connection. More likely is a system whereby the concentrator 'polls' each meter in turn and when a meter hears its own address it will respond with its status, which might be a reading or the power consumption at that moment. The concentrator can also send commands - imagine if there is a power shortage for some reason: the power company can send a command that will remotely disconnect a percentage of all the consumers for a couple of hours and a different group for the next couple of hours, etc.

Big brother really is watching you.........

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby spanish_lad » Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:05 pm

El Cid wrote:It's up to you to bypass or remove the old ICP if you wish. The new meter installation does not involve access to the house.

Although the new meters are capable of transmitting monthly readings I don't think that option has been implemented yet.

Sid

as of feb 16 endesa now do this when they change the meter. (If you are in when they come to do it)
Alhaurin el Grande since ´99, working at the airport since 2011.

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Re: Endesa ICP and Smart Meters

Postby spanish_lad » Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:08 pm

El Cid wrote:Does anyone know what happens if the internal ICP trips? Normally you just go to the fuse box and reset the system, but if the meter is outside that could be a problem.

Maybe it resets after a short period.

Sid
the guy stuck a sticker on our fuse box inside the house (diagrams) and as he was taking the main breaker out (the sealed one, the icp) i asked why, he said that the icp is built in, and if it trips you just unplug whatever drew too much power and it resets in 20-30 seconds, power comes back on.
Alhaurin el Grande since ´99, working at the airport since 2011.


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